Girls with AS

[kerryt84]

This is a file I found that lists female AS traits, it also states how they are different to male AS traits. I found it really interesting so hope it helps some people on here.

 

http://help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/wp_a58d4f6a.html

 

 

Kerry

[Frizz]

Oh my! I have often thought that my DD doesnt 'fit' in many of the listed Aspie traits I have read. Think again!! Having read table 1,she is text book! Is this taken from the book mentioned on the same page do you know?

[baddad]

TBH I find these kinds of 'lists of symptoms' quite scary (in the same way that I find online tests scary) because anyone who wants to find something to 'explain' their own or someone elses behaviour will be able to identify enough traits from such a list to confirm their assumptions.

It's exactly the same kind of cod psychology con artists (or 'spiritualists' or 'fortune tellers' or even religious fanatics/leaders) use - projecting universal character traits to suggest an individual experience.

I don't know what the answers are in terms of accurate identification and diagnosis, but using the models shown in these charts you could almost certainly make a diagnosis for anyone who (for whatever reason) wanted a diagnosis or for anyone on whom (for whatever reason) you wanted to project a diagnosis.

That's not to say, of course, that someone who has an ASD won't/can't display some or even many of the 'traits' listed, because they certainly will. Just so too will huge numbers of the general non-autistic population, possibly (depending on their own psychological make-up, needs and purely subjective assessment of the 'severity' of their symptoms) to an even greater degree than a genuinely autistic person wiothout those same psychological needs...

 

L&P

 

BD

[NobbyNobbs]

the problem with lists like this is they include wild catch alls like 'can be very shy or mute' and 'can be very outspoken' which are almost guarenteed to pick up anyone reading the list. as a female with AS the divide on that list is about 50% agree, 50% disagree

[Juno20]

Well i can see what people are saying about lists as i found that lots of those things aplied to me but could also apply to anyone.

 

One of the things it mentioned that i didn't know about were the sensitivity to substances.

 

Does anyone else suffer with sensitivity to medications or other things like caffeine and alcohol?

 

I get drunk on less than half a pint of cider and can't drink coffee as it gives me the shakes, I also am very sensitive to medications.

 

Another funny thing is it saying aspie girls tend to look and act younger than they really are. I am 28 and a half and i still get ID'd whenever i buy alcohol, which i always find very amusing indeed.

 

[trekster]

Oh my! I have often thought that my DD doesnt 'fit' in many of the listed Aspie traits I have read. Think again!! Having read table 1,she is text book! Is this taken from the book mentioned on the same page do you know?

 

ive got the book "aspergers and girls" in my personal collection.

[trekster]

Wow that is quite a revelation for me.........

 

Some of the symptoms i definitely have from that list include;

 

1, "prone to crying and anger meltdowns...........common triggers being hunger/food related" my mum is better at noticing my hunger than me.

 

2, "enjoys reading and films as a retreat" i often escape into star trek but i dont tend to retreat into fantasy or other type films. In fact i tend to analyse

their hidden meanings. Sounds similar to tony attwoods "escape into imagination" which afaik he mentioned is common in female aspies.

 

3, "will not do well with verbal instruction" but i am dyslexic so that could be it.

 

4, "Hairstyles usually tend to be "wash and wear" will not spend much time on grooming hair" definitely me but recently i have been trying to find a celebrities hairstyle to imitate.

 

5, "will posses a wide variety of self taught skills as well" i taught myself suduko without the instructions. Also often experiment with various PC programs and functions on my sky box.

 

6, "can be very passionate about a course of study or job then change direction or go cold on it completely" might explain why i went from computing, to office and accountancy, to diet and health, to autism (education courses) as i was trying to find my way?

 

7, "more open to talking about feelings and emotions than men with AS" many of my AS male friends i cannot work out what they are thinking or feeling even when i ask them.

 

8, "9-10 have mild to severe gastrointestinal difficulties" (yes ive got IBS and recurrent nausea and bowel issues as a result) Might explain why probiotics tend to help many autistics.

 

9, "hates injustice and hates to be misunderstood" could explain my depression related anger

 

10, "probably given several different prescriptions to treat symptoms. Will be very sensitive to medications and anything else she puts in her body so may have adverse reactions"

 

11, "if she is in a relationship she may take it very seriously" eh? Since when were relationships just a bit of fun?

 

12, "words and actions are often misunderstood by others" no kidding.

 

Alexis

Edited December 29, 2009 by trekster

[trekster]

the problem with lists like this is they include wild catch alls like 'can be very shy or mute' and 'can be very outspoken' which are almost guarenteed to pick up anyone reading the list. as a female with AS the divide on that list is about 50% agree, 50% disagree

 

Taken from the site;

 

These lists are based on my research. While others may be coming to their own similar conclusions, I based these observations of Female AS on interviews with dozens of diagnosed women of all ages and educational backgrounds, from all over the world. These traits were threads that ran throughout their information and stories, tying us all together. As usual, I do not mean to say that all women with AS will possess all of these traits and I do not like putting us in boxes, but there was a need for an easy-to-read reference. This list will certainly be expanded and revised in the future.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

firstly observations on dozens doesn't cut it in psychological studies. they work in the hundreds and thousands to be effective. secondly lists which sweep wildly from one side to the other trying to catch everyone at some point aren't accurate references. the only thing that list says is that everyone is different which we already know.

 

i find lists like that to be very harmful, as they speak to pretty much everyone who reads them which leads to confusion when very few of the behaviours/symptoms mentioned are relevant to assessment and diagnosis.

[Martin Howe]

So many of them apply to all of us though; you'd think I was half woman reading that list. Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or buy myself a lovely pink dress

[bid]

While understanding the comments made here, the point is you have to start somewhere don't you?

 

Look at the NAS leaflets about ASD/AS...very, very basic, but as I say, you have to start somewhere.

 

After all, all of us here who have a child with a dx or a dx ourselves, will have originally started with a list of concerns/behaviours that we shared with a GP or consultant.

 

Bid

[trekster]

So many of them apply to all of us though; you'd think I was half woman reading that list. Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or buy myself a lovely pink dress

 

i don't wear dresses, it mentioned the common traits for asperger females, the ones that dont apply to all of us are the key.

 

Alexis

[baddad]

While understanding the comments made here, the point is you have to start somewhere don't you?

 

Look at the NAS leaflets about ASD/AS...very, very basic, but as I say, you have to start somewhere.

 

After all, all of us here who have a child with a dx or a dx ourselves, will have originally started with a list of concerns/behaviours that we shared with a GP or consultant.

 

Bid

 

Totally agree you have to start somewhere, but what worries me about these kinds of diagnostic 'kits' is that they encourage home diagnosis where the role of the professional is reduced to that of a rubber stamp... Often it's not a case any more of someone turning to a professional to find out 'what', but seeking a professional who will endorse what the patient or the patient's parent(s)has already decided for themselves. Providing lists of pretty much universal experiences (I've just looked through the list trekster picked out and almost all of them fall into that category, with probably a fifty/fifty chance on those that don't) can only make that situation worse.

I think, at a guesstimate, that probably around three quarters of the population are unhappy about some aspect of their life or their personality or both. Using a list like this, I don't think any of them would have a problem identifying autism in some form or other as the cause of that unhappiness if they chose to. I think that's incredibly dangerous - both for those 'projecting' their unhappiness onto autism and for those who have autism whose disability is being undermined by those who casually appropriate it. I think we are already seeing the effects of that in the way that local authorities and social services have changed their policies on AS dx's and access to support services.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Juno20]

I must confess that it does cross my ming sometimes that maybe i just have a lot of coincidental similarities to someone with AS and maybe I just have a slighly wierd personality and just don't fit in or have human friends.

 

My Boyfriend is quite convinced i do have AS where as my sister just feels its just my personality.

 

How does the person doing the diagnosing tell the difference between someone with AS and someone who has many autistic traits and few neurotypical traits?

[kerryt84]

I always wonder that too Juno. I feel like someone would have to live with me for a week to know if I had AS or not.

[smiley1590]

i agree kerry i always say what you said i think many AS sufferers will want this to happen!!! desperately XXX

[baddad]

How does the person doing the diagnosing tell the difference between someone with AS and someone who has many autistic traits and few neurotypical traits?

 

That's the difficult part... But having said that, there really isn't any sort of line between 'autistic traits' and 'neurotypical traits' - it's all part of the same continuum. and a question of degree. It's also very subjective, and other factors (like personality, environment, parenting, life experiences, mental and physical health etc etc etc ) are also part of the equation.

You mentioned that your boyfriend and your sister have different views, and that could be equally true for two 'identically disabled' people (if such a thing existed) - i.e. two people who were 'challenged' by what life threw at them to the same degree but who responded to and viewed those challenges differently... one might see them as just part of how life is, while another might see them as how life is for them, and look for external explanations for 'why'.

Undoubtedly the reason why your boyfriend and your sister see things differently is subjective too: It has less to do with you and more to do with them and what they perceive autism to mean. They might, additionally, have very powerful psychological drives that inform those perceptions that have absolutely nothing to do with your or autism, but arise instead from their own needs... Thinking of examples (and please don't take this as a comment on anyone you know, they're just examples): someone who had a 'saviour' or 'martyr' personality might well project a disorder like autism onto those close to them in order to satisfy their own need to save or be a martyr... A controlling personality might project autism onto someone close to them to undermine the 'diagnosed' person's confidence and thus strengthen their own position of dominance and control.

Similarly, someone who has diagnosed themselves may do so to facilitate their own 'need' to play a victim role, or to exert control over others by capitalising on their disabled status.

Another way of thinking about it is something like a cold: Out of every hundred people who get a cold, a certain percentage will consider that cold to be 'flu'. Another percentage may add 'swine' or 'bird' to the front of the latter. There may be another percentage who decide they had pneumonia, or glandular fever or any other variety of illness that shares some or all of the 'symptoms' of a cold. Even if the actual virus was the same in every case, the effect on the individual could differ hugely depending on all sorts of factors. Some of those could be medical (differences in immune systems etc) but many more would be psychological and sociological, and many of those would be purely subjective...

Responding to Kerryt84's observation that somebody would have to live with her to know there are just too many variables in the equation. You'd have to have a huge amount of knowledge about the motivations of the 'actor' and the 'observer' to be able to draw any conclusion - either or both could have a huge (and not necessarilly 'conscious') psychological investment in the outcome.

As there is no physical way of diagnosing autism the criteria will always be flawed. The problem is (IMO) that in recent years - and in ways that have already been observed with other diagnosis like ADHD and Dyslexia - the criteria has expanded so rapidly and greatly that it's becoming dangerously close to meaningless in some cases, and that can only be bad news in terms of how the disability is viewed in a wider context and, by extension, how needs and resources are identified and allocated. Add to that that more and more people are becoming dependent on autism for making their living ('Aspilebrity!') it's hardly surprising that autism is on the rise: You just have to wonder where 'improved diagnostics' begins and 'growth industry gravy train' ends...

If you're selective enough in what you choose to look at you could diagnose pretty much anybody on the planet with autism. The list linked in the OP - and I think everyone who's posted agrees on this(?) - seems to show just that.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Juno20]

I love your comparison to people with cold saying they have flu, my BF had a terrible cold over christmas and kept insisting he had flu. Man flu... ha ha.

 

I do agree that someone could for various reasons get a DX if they just told the assesor the right things and acted the right way, but i never considered that someone might want to be labeled with this disability if they didn't actually have it. I suppose like you say different things motivate people to do strange things sometimes subconsiously.

 

I must say your post has made me question my BF's motives for wanting me to get an assessment as i had made the decision not go for a DX after i was refered but he was quite insistant that i should go.

[chris54]

but i never considered that someone might want to be labeled with this disability

 

I know it is hard to conceive, but there are people who will deliberately cause themselves injury so as to become disabled. There is a name for it which I cant think off right now.

[dee23]

Excellent and thought provoking posts on this subject as ever baddad.

 

In common with lots of others it was a "list of traits", accidently stumbled across on the net, that set my partner, and myself, on the long road of looking into AS as a possible reason, cause, answer - call it what you will - for his behaviour and feelings etc. For myself, the value of a site such as this has been to provide a much more rounded view of growing up and living with AS than any list could ever provide, which has acted as a much needed counterpoint to the box-ticking tendency that lists tend to provoke. However, as bid very importantly pointed out, everyone has to start somewhere, and that is usually with a list. Either one that someone already has, or, as in our case, seeing a list and having the hairs on the back of your neck stand up at the accuracy of the majority of the list.... One of the biggest things to come out of this forum for alex, my partner, has been seeing accounts from parents of their children, particularly with regard to problems at school, and seeing so much of his own history reflected there. There has been a degree of sadness to this - he spent his early life, particularly adolescence, being pushed from pillar to post and labelled as naughty and/or a product of bad parenting (an "assessment" which has occasionally followed him into adult life) - and he cannot help but feel sometimes that his life may have been very different if someone had looked into the possibilities of a developmental disorder in his childhood. Recently he has been trying to approach his life in a different way. He went into a bit of a mental and emotional nosedive after first beginning to look at AS, partly because he felt unable to accept self-diagnosis as "good enough", and, basically, the thought that he perhaps might not be naughty after all was quite overwhelming! (the risk of harmful labelling does not just come with diagnosis.....) . Alongside lots of contact with his doctor i tried to encourage him to learn and use some "AS related" coping strategies, if you see what i mean. He was eventually able to do this, with the help of this forum and a couple of books, and even without professional help or support it is making a huge difference to his life, and ability to cope with certain things. All this is early steps on a long road, but it all came from a list.....

 

However, baddads post is also spot on about the horribly complicated psychological motives that can come into play around things like this. There is also a lot of overlap between many of the traits that appear on these lists, and those that can result from poor or troubled parenting or traumatic experiences, further muddying the already murky waters of self diagnosis. Someone on this forum writes very knowledgeable and clear posts on that very issue, and her words have always given me lots to think about, another benefit of moving on from lists and box-ticking.

 

Finally (honest ), NobbyNobbs makes the very important point that a lot of the traits that appear on these lists are not even relevant to actual diagnostic criteria. The NAS helpsheet about approaching the GP is good on this point, but most of the other lists i have seen just do not stress this enough. They also often fail to stress that there needs to be some disablement in the persons life, for the purposes of assessment and diagnosis, rather than just identification with a list.

 

Chris54, are you thinking of Munchausens syndrome, rather than Munchausens syndrome by proxy, where people cause illness or injury to others (tragically often children in their care), in order to be seen to care for or "rescue" them, or gain attention themselves from the medical world. Sadly the human mind can be a dark place indeed......

[justine1]

I know it is hard to conceive, but there are people who will deliberately cause themselves injury so as to become disabled. There is a name for it which I cant think off right now.

I also watched a programme about three years ago,whereby a mum who has 8 kids and is on benefits said she has taken her son for an assesment for autism,and that if he has it,it will help because they could buy a new telly with the disability cash!This is why I am reluctant to even apply for such monies,cause I am on benefits I feel I get enough and if I need more need to work for it.Even though my son may be entitled to it,it is like these people give us a bad name.I think its disgusting that she seemed to "use" her child in this way.If she said she was doing it for her son to get help so he can be independent etc in adult yrs then that would be different!

[baddad]

I must say your post has made me question my BF's motives for wanting me to get an assessment as i had made the decision not go for a DX after i was refered but he was quite insistant that i should go.

 

Heaven forbid! That wasn't my intention at all and I certainly wouldn't even hazard a guess at the motivations of a complete stranger! As I said, these are just general observations, highlighting that we all have our own reasons for behaving in certain ways and the fact that those reasons can be complex and hard to recognise even for ourselves...

I can't remember his name, but there's a psychologist who writes poetry about interpersonal relationships, and it can all get quite 'dark', even in relationships that appear to work well.

 

but i never considered that someone might want to be labeled with this disability if they didn't actually have it

Sadly, it's not that straightforward. For many people such a label might be a more comfortable 'explanation' than other alternatives. Defence lawyers in the past few years have seen the 'value' of a plea of autism to explain all sorts of criminal behaviours. It seems now to have lost it's appeal (excuse the pun) a little in the same way that pleas of (i.e.) ADHD & PMT have, but on a personal level, with some personality types, the advantages of diagnosis will certainly outweigh any potential disadvantages - particularly among those who can pick and choose to whom and when they 'reveal' their disability and the circumstances under which they choose to do so.

While I think benefit fraud is also a concern I think it is much less likely as a motivator than psychological imperatives. That said, benefit fraud is a very real issue, and could certainly be seen as a secondary advantage to diagnosis. Certainly I've met parents who seem to consider DLA as a 'payment made to them for having a disabled child' rather than as a payment to meet the additional needs the child's disability creates.

At the moment there seem to be a couple of over-riding preconceptions about Aspergers in particular (as opposed to 'autism):

• It implies average or above average intelligence/creativity (usually the focus is on the 'above average')
• It implies a lack of social awareness/skill (thereby excusing rudeness/thoughtlessness/inconsideration).

Take the out and out 'Alpha's' out of the equation (who are confident enough about the first and don't really have to worry about the second because they can get by without them and/or by switching it on and off as it suits them!) and most people would see the benefits of a 'mild AS' label, both for its value as a social shoo-in (or opt out) and as a psychological reassurance.

As I've said - certainly not judging any total strangers and no one should take this personally, but my over-riding concern about all of this is that children like my son - who is bright, articulate, funny etc etc but who will always stand out as 'different' even in the most autistic-friendly environments - become doubly marginalised as a result of preconceptions about this new breed of 'Mild' or 'HF' Aspies' who seem for the most part to be able to blend quite anonymously into the background.

At the other end of the spectrum we have severely autistic children who are already 'doubly marginalised' by children like my son, and, with increasing frequency, by people who believe that a shared diagnosis means a shared perspective and feel they have the right to speak as advocates for ALL autistic people.

 

Phew! Sorry 'bout that! HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL - and please, please PLEAZE don't anyone take the above personally.

 

L&P

 

BD

[JsMum]

So many of them apply to all of us though; you'd think I was half woman reading that list. Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or buy myself a lovely pink dress

Actually Men can have a Female gene, we are all female in the beginning anyway, but it maybe you have female brain/chemistry but clearly your a male, and dont wear dresses.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[JsMum]

I also watched a programme about three years ago,whereby a mum who has 8 kids and is on benefits said she has taken her son for an assesment for autism,and that if he has it,it will help because they could buy a new telly with the disability cash!This is why I am reluctant to even apply for such monies,cause I am on benefits I feel I get enough and if I need more need to work for it.Even though my son may be entitled to it,it is like these people give us a bad name.I think its disgusting that she seemed to "use" her child in this way.If she said she was doing it for her son to get help so he can be independent etc in adult yrs then that would be different!

I personally dont think that by you Not applying for DLA/carers will stop other fruadulant claims, if at the end of the day your child/ren with a disability are entitled to it then they have a right to be assessed for the benefit.

 

I urge you to get further support for application for DLA if the only reason you are not attempting to claim is because of this one mother of eight, because at the end of the day it wont make no difference to her, but it will make a massive difference to your child if she is deemed meeting the assessment and even if she/he is turned down there is appeal process and an opportunity to go to tribunal where the evidence can presented for a possible award.

 

for further information on DLA contact National Autistic Society and Contact A family have booklets all about it too.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[JsMum]

I know it is hard to conceive, but there are people who will deliberately cause themselves injury so as to become disabled. There is a name for it which I cant think off right now.

 

 

I have been thinking about this post a lot, and want to comment on it, whilst yes there maybe people who cause themselves injury to be become disabled, I wanted to make a point that people also hurt themselves for many reasons and the biggest reason is a lack of ability to express their feelings and communicate that, so for some it is another way of release, self harm is not nessasarily about suicide or wanting to harm themselves, for some its a survival and actually it is also a sign that there is needs that are been unmet by the system.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[JsMum]

If there is any girls/females who do suspect themselves of having AS or an ASD is to contact National Autistic Society who will send them a folder on the condition, and let them know of the assessment route, and have a proper assessment, be that NHS or Private, that is a personal choice and doesnt effect the overall result, but for further information I recommend NAS.

 

And good luck with assessments/result as it can not be an easy journey to make.

 

JsMumxx

 

[matzoball]

As a woman with AS it's been a long hard road for me in regards to diagnosis, now I am for some reason being re-assessed as my new GP thinks I have High Functioning Autism because she feels i am not typical of a woman with Aspergers. I didn't think that a re-assessment was possible but there you go.

 

The list is something that ticks a lot of boxes with me, but certainly not all of them - this doesn't mean I don't have AS, or am part of the new breed that was mentioned in an earlier post.

 

I learned to hide things when I was little, and developed these hiding skills the older I got - playing a part if you will. Now that I am older and in more or less complete control of my life I don't have to do that anymore. But looking back I do see most of my teenage social life as one big performance.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that the list does seem to cover behaviours I have and others no doubt have, but it's not exclusive or exhaustive - it's easy to forget that not everyone falls into the same area of the spectrum - whether mild or severe or somewhere in between, we all have needs and need support.

 

I am actually being interviewed for a magazine today for an article about women with ASD - it will be interesting to see how the interviewer percieves females on the spectrum. I will probably post a link to it or scan it once it is published.

[JsMum]

As a woman with AS it's been a long hard road for me in regards to diagnosis, now I am for some reason being re-assessed as my new GP thinks I have High Functioning Autism because she feels i am not typical of a woman with Aspergers. I didn't think that a re-assessment was possible but there you go.

 

The list is something that ticks a lot of boxes with me, but certainly not all of them - this doesn't mean I don't have AS, or am part of the new breed that was mentioned in an earlier post.

 

I learned to hide things when I was little, and developed these hiding skills the older I got - playing a part if you will. Now that I am older and in more or less complete control of my life I don't have to do that anymore. But looking back I do see most of my teenage social life as one big performance.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that the list does seem to cover behaviours I have and others no doubt have, but it's not exclusive or exhaustive - it's easy to forget that not everyone falls into the same area of the spectrum - whether mild or severe or somewhere in between, we all have needs and need support.

 

I am actually being interviewed for a magazine today for an article about women with ASD - it will be interesting to see how the interviewer percieves females on the spectrum. I will probably post a link to it or scan it once it is published.

 

 

My son has HFA as I was told he cant have AS due to severe speech and language disorders.

 

There is no other differences in that, my son has HFA along side other comorbids too, such as Dyslexia, ADHD exct...

 

A dx of AS there is no significant speech and language difficulties,ext,, but I have friends with children with AS and they had speech and language delay/difficulties and still got AS dx so it is a peferance of the assessors.

 

It still may turn out that you have AS and not HFA, what grounds has he said you have HFA as there reletively the same.

 

I think HFA defines the Speech and language, difficulties.

 

AS normal speech/language development.

 

JsMum

 

Edited January 11, 2010 by JsMum