T.A. - L.S.A.

[Mother in Need]

Teaching Assistant - Learning Support Assistant

What is the difference between them?

Is one specifically attached to a statemented child, and the other a general help, or do they simply call it different things in different areas or does it depend on who funds them, or or or?

[Flora]

Not sure, but I think the teaching assistant assits the teacher, and the LSA supports a child or children.

 

Might be wrong and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me

 

Lauren

[smallworld]

Ooh, I didn't know that, makes sense if you think about it !

 

wac

[oracle]

Where I live we call em NTA - Non Teaching Assistant and LSA - Learning support Assistant. They both do the same job basicallyand that is assist the teacher, in whatever way they are needed.

 

Carole

[Brook]

I always thought that they were just different names for them.

 

Thinking about it though, you could be right Lauren

 

Brook

[katkin]

I think this was all part of a government initiative to up the status of " the helper" in the class into a professional person. The idea was if you have qualifications you could be a TA and then would legally be allowed to teach the class. Also govt now states that teachers have to have so much noncontact time so ,especially in secondary schools, other teachers could not cover for others so..... in comes super TA to the rescue to teach a class, thus of course saving on supply teacher money because I can tell you there's no way a TA earns as much as supply. Trouble is lots of posts are described as being TA but the job spec is really still LSA. SNA does not really exist any more - it used to be applied to someone who worked with a statemented child or in a unit or special school. A least this is true in our county.

So the answer is, no not much difference at all and there are still some superb LSAs who have no qualifications just as there will be TAs with bits of paper but who I would not have teaching my gerbil let alone my child. love Kat

[jomica]

The teaching assistant is a general teacher's helper in the classroom and is funded through the school's own budget. The Learning Support Assistant is generally allocated to one or more children, usually funded through statements.

 

Hope this helps.

[Zemanski]

In Leeds all LSAs were retitled TAs in line with government and LEA policy about 2 years ago.

I still use LSA because I'm stubborn and I want my son to have learning support not be looked after by a teachers' assistant

 

Zemanski

[baileyj]

In Max's reception class there is a TA who is there for all the children and to help the teacher, and Max's LSA (Julie) who is there to support Max as per his statemented hours.

 

Cheers

 

Jo

[phasmid]

I am a Teaching Assistant so here's my take on it. In my case I have undertaken additonal training that allows me to teach groups of pupils (either within the classroom or withdrawn into other areas). I am able to plan my own sessions and set the work according to the needs of the children I work with. However this is nt where my role starts and ends. In addition I also support groups or individual pupils within a classroom based lesson. I work alongside the teacher, often having input into IEPs and giving feedback (both formal and informal) on the childrens progress. I work with the SENCo as well as the class teacher. My role is to support the teacher as much as it is to support the children.

 

In my LEA, at least, a LSA is normally attatched to one specific child supporting their learning in whatever way the SENCo or the teacher directs. They may or may not have specialist knowledge and or training specific to the needs of the child they are supporting. There role is not to support the teacher directly.

 

Hope that clears it up a bit.

[helenl53]

Hi All

 

I am now going to ask - is there such a thing as a classroom assistant and is this like an LSA (who I understand does not have the TA training but who supports 1 child) who supports the class?

 

The reason I am asking is, that perhaps if LSA/TA and Classroom support has been renamed under the generic title TA, then maybe schools are buying in LSA/CA and calling it TA to fool everyone that courses have been undertaken and TA qualifications obtained.

 

This is probably a really daft question as I know that schools would never try to fool parents

 

Thanks

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL

[phasmid]

Depends on the LEA as to which title is used. Some use all 3:

 

TA as explained above.

 

LSA ditto

 

CSA same as a TA, just a different title.

 

 

Other LEAs will use one or the other or a combination of them. I prefer my definition. TA supports individuals/groups and supports the teacher. LSA supports a pupil.

 

The level of qualifications for any of these roles can vary enormously from school to school, never mind LEA to LEA. Some set minimums standards some require more. Some set them according to the specific role the TA/CSA/LSA is being taken on for.

 

So that's now as clear as mud!

[UltraMum]

I think it may depend on the school as to what the titles are!

 

In our LEA I have encountered TA and SA and CA (teaching, school and classroom) - all meaning the person whose role is to support teaching and learning within the classroom. They are usually employed by the school.

 

I have also come across LSA and SNA (learning support and special needs) - both meaning the person whose role is to support a child with a statement - they may be employed by the school or centrally by the LEA.

 

The new 'super' TA is a HLTA - Higher level teaching assistant - they have to prove that they meet over 31 standards grouped into - professional values and practice, knowledge and understanding, teaching and learning activities.

 

Hope this helps

[annie]

Hi Helen,

 

When I worked as an LSA (1:1 with an ASD child), I had no formal training but was taken on because I had experience of my own son with Asperger's, which is a lot more experience that some

 

The classroom assistant that we had in our class had no formal training, but was left sometimes with the class on her own when the teacher had 'other' things to do.

 

Just before I left the school they were asking if any of the teaching assistants wanted to do a course that would put them on a higher grade with a bit more money. When I read the info about it, it seemed to me like the responsibilities that they were asked to take on were virtually the same as teachers, but for less money and without doing the whole teacher training, basically cheaper, less qualified teachers.

 

Helen, what are you thinking? schools try to fool us - never

 

Annie

X

[helenl53]

Hi Guys

 

I get very nervous about these things - it is all deemed to confuse us. There is a posting that says CA is the same as TA - TA is trained - but CA in Annies school was not trained!

 

Apparently HLTA's can take on the class (so my friend a TA told me) when the teachers are having their time out.

 

TES (paper - not website) was saying that there is a lot of unrest as these HLTA's will get approximately 50p per hour extra for only those times when they are in charge of a class. Tes were also talking about Headteachers have been given permission to increase class sizes to 60 to ensure this time out (I think I have the cutting somewhere) so this means that there could be 60 kids squashed into a class for two half days per week.

 

I will be interested in how this is all going to work in practice and would like to hear from anyone who can keep me up to date.

 

Thanks

 

 

HelenL

[katkin]

Yes helenl, HLTAs can take on a class for which they will get paid extra but often only if the school has the money for it! As far as I know there is no set guarantee that the HLTA will get the extra money. Secondary schools are frantically recruiting cover supervisors, those very brave, mad or foolish people who will go into a class and take a lesson that is prepared by a teacher who is then on noncontact time. Check any job spec through the LEAs web site and see what they are offering, especially if they school is supposed to be recruiting an LSA (or whatever) to support your child. Then when you get a good LSA/TA/SNA keep hold of that person by fair means or foul, qualifications often mean diddly!As to how it will all work in practice - well exactly -will it? Or am I just being a little cynical here? Do schools try to fool parents.. ho... hum! love Kat

[phasmid]

This will stir the debate!!

 

HLTA is a status not a qulification. It is not even as highly considered as the Specialist Teaching Assistant Certificate from the OU (which I have). That requires far more than the HLTA training. As a non HLTA (I decided NOT to go that route mid degree) I have been filling the same role for some time. I have taken lessons using the teachers planning or using my own. I have co-taught classes with a teacher. HLTAs/TAs are being blamed for many things by many people. Many see HLTAs as a threat. However, as things stand, a headteacher may allow any TA (HLTA or not) to fill the described roll if, in their opinion, the person is cabable of filling that role. As for pay, some are getting extra for all their hours, some only for the hours they work as a HLTA (the rest of their hours are paid as TA hours), some are getting no extra. I could ask for unqualified teacher rate for the time I spend filling in for the teacher - I never have yet.

 

The whole thing varies from LEA to LEA (as ever!), and again, from school to school. TA rates also vary from LEA to LEA. This weeks TES has an interesting article about who earns what in the world of education. What they forget to add to the TA levels is the rates are paid pro-rata. The TA earning the (mis)quoted �19k a year is a mythical beast who rides through the school playground on their tame Unicorn!

[katkin]

Phasmid, when you find the job app for the 19K TA send me a copy too! I will apply, Kat PS, does the LEA pay unicorn mileage? How does this compare to car allowance?

[annie]

Good to see the wages have gone up

 

Is this mythical TA employed by the mythical LEA where all special needs children are receiving all the help they need?

 

Annie

[katkin]

That's the place; where statements are issued and there's no tribunals, respite care when you need it and not 18mths waiting list, full professional diagnosis with everybody all together and not 23 different appointments. All these mythical TAs must be ex employees of IPSEA & other advocacy groups! I think this place is called LaLa land cos for sure not the LEA I work for! Love Kat

[annie]

 

Annie

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[helenl53]

Where is this La La Land - is it North or South of the Watford Gap

 

I am a great believer that attitude and a desire to do your job can be a greater qualifier than formal qualifications, but I appreciate that to be taken seriously and to earn decent money, you need those qualifications.

 

As a parent, I would like to say a massive thank you to all those on this forum (and outside) who give a damn for our kids when they are in their charge at school.

 

Not only are you helping our kids, but you are putting up with all the political cr*p within schools and LEAs

 

Thanks

 

HelenL

[phasmid]

I have a feeling that Lala land is niether North nor South of the Watford Gap. Rumours abound of a mythical LEA that was swallowed up by a sea of red tape...leaving me to ponder whether this LEA did once exsist but, alas, it was used as 'in-fill' for Watfords legendary 'Gap'.

[Mother in Need]

Well everyone, you're certainly making me laugh , but I don't think I am any the wiser after asking the original question..

 

Can I ask another one?

Can we as parents request or even demand that our children's LSA or TA or whatever they're called today or next year, actually have a certain amount of training in autism and/or any other diagnoses our children have? I do agree with the person who said that having a child like this yourselves gives you much more training than a qualified person will ever have, but it is unlikely one can request that, so at least some knowledge and understanding should be had?

[helenl53]

HI Mother In Need

 

My sons Paed and the community doctor both said in reports that persons who came into contact with my son had to have 'a good knowledge of AS'

 

I fought to get this on statement and officer at LEA told me it was unreasonable to expect this - I am holding out for it - and it is one of the things that will be decided by Tribunal in just over a week.

 

If it is not on there then of course it will cost less as LEA will not have to directly fund training in AS - because of course, they get some of their delegated money back by organising training that the schools have to buy in!!!!

 

You can see that there is a pattern emerging.

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL

[phasmid]

There is a segment on staff awareness in the Autisc Spectrum Disorders; Good Practice Guidance that covers this scenario M-I-N. (From memory) I think it states that there ought (to my mind read 'should') be at least 1 member of staff with good knowledge of (and training about) ASDs in every school. Ideally this knowledge is then spread throughout the rest of the staff. I am often asked at the school where I work for my take on ASD issues that arise. In all honesty all I can say is: This,that or the other worked for Phas Jr or for X. Try that and see what happens' - not perfect but it's a start, at least they ask!

 

Schools do try to get the right person for the child. Background knowledge is a plus but so is getting the right person for the job. Ongoing training (for all staff) ought to cover any aspect of SEN. I don't think you can do more than ask that a TA/LSA/CSA has some ASD specific training/knowledge or that the school arange it PDQ - or both, that ought to be the minimum standard anyway (in my opinion).

[helenl53]

Hear Hear Phasmid - I have two very close friends who are TA's and both of them have undertaken ASD specific training -AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE - because they care and feel out of their depth with no knowledge.

 

I am hearing frequently, however, stories about schools being overwhelmed and not having the knowledge or training to meet the needs of our kids.

 

This may all change with time, but we have to keep chipping away.

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL

[smallworld]

Hi,

Just to add another quick question to the TA/LSA debate,

Should schools be advertising these posts ?

Our school's SenCo just seems to pick a mum she thinks will be suitable !

We've been extremely luck in that the mums she chose for our son are wonderful, and I can see one of them becoming the school's expert.

I've never seen an advert for a TA/LSA in this school.

 

wac

Edited September 11, 2005 by waccoe

[Mother in Need]

Another related question is, who pays for a statemented child's TA/LSA? The school out of a general budget, the LEA direct, or does the LEA give the school extra money for the school to pay this person? And in that case, might the school not try to use that money/TA/LSA for more children than just the one it is intended for and 'cheat'?

[phasmid]

Schools ought to advertise these posts. They will be found on the LEA/Council website for my LEA as well as appearing in the local press. Schools need to fill these posts with the best quality person for the job. That said, advice given on forums such as TES (by me and others) for those wanting to become a TA is to stick your CV through the letterboxes of as many schools as possible. So if a vacancy comes up they may have someone 'on record' who can fill it without advertising (keeps costs down - money for these ads comes out of the school budget), or, as in my case I was offered the next job that came up after missing out on the ones I applied for. So they don't always get 'offered to a mum' (or dad!) as people seem to think - I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it is not usual (or good) practice to fill a vacancy this way anymore.

 

As for funding. A statement hours can fund a TA/CSA/LSA directly or be given to the school to use as they see fit to use in order to support a child. It depends mostly on the LEA these days.

 

Don't forget that a lot of support for our children is to support 'social skills'. These cannot be taught in isolation from the rest of a childs peer group. So TA (etc) support will be used for more than 1 child (at any time and in any lesson) in this sort of instance. It may look like a 'cheat' on first impressions but it isn't when you stand back and look at the bigger picture. Thats not to say that some schools or LEAs don't try and push it to the limit. They will always try to squeeze a pint from a quart pot!

Edited September 12, 2005 by phasmid

[Mother in Need]

Phasmid, are you saying that if I manage to get my son's statement to say 'requires 20 hours of TA support a week' the school could still use this funding to get a general TA to help the whole class, instead of really giving my son the support he so desperately needs but is not capable of asking for?

[phasmid]

No! Absolutley not. If a child has a statement of support giving X number of hours of support THAT is what you should get! What's more you can demand to see the IEP and check it to see what's in place. A statement carries a lot of weight.

 

What I am saying is that schools will use these hours to support other pupils whilst supporting yours as and when appropriate. As I said, taking social skills, as an example, they simply cannot be taught in isolation. Therefore it is reasonable to expect other children to be supporting (and gaining) from such a session. The main benefit from a session on this led/presented/taught by a LSA who is 1-1 support for a statemented child should be the statemented child, but others can and will benefit from it as well.

 

Schools will try and squeeze as much out of these hours as possible and see it as getting value for money. To me that's fine, as long as the statemented child remains the primary focus. When they don't, and there is still a problem, that is different - I have actively supported someone in just such a position and helped them get the school to pay heed to the statement. The long term aim of any 1-1 TA ought to be to work their magic to such a point that the child no longer needs them - thereby doing themselves out of a job!

 

A 1-1 TA should not be used as general support for the whole class. If the class needs that sort of support then it should be provided (it is in my school). The 1-1 TA has a focus - the statemented child. No excuses!

[helenl53]

Hi All,

 

The main thing is to make sure that the statement indicates the dedicated and individual support and is quantified - otherwise it is open to interpretation, and how can you say that the conditions of the statement may have been breached when it is not clear what your child is entitled to.

 

This is where, getting help with the checking of the statement can be a godsend as, IPSEA and NAS will already be aware of the pitfalls of poorly written statements.

 

My sons statement did say ...own budget etc, and 'the school' would be provided with an additional 5 hours TA support. Sorry, but that did not indicate that this TA support was going to be directed towards my son. What it did say to me, was, we will give �50 extra a week to the school to admit this child.

 

Anyway - I am not happy with this and a number of other things - so - hi ho, hi ho, i'ts off to Tribunal I go

 

Best wishes

 

Helen

[phasmid]

The main thing is to make sure that the statement indicates the dedicated and individual support and is quantified - otherwise it is open to interpretation...

 

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

 

Give some schools/ or LEAs an inch and they will take a mile (and then some!!!). So Helenl is spot on! Get the statement pinned down as much as possible. Leave nothing to chance, when the draft statement comes in go over it with a fine tooth comb. Then get someone to check it and then check it again! If SALT is needed, as an example, make sure it is there, in writing...how much, how often AND who will provide it!

[helenl53]

Hi Phasmid,

 

Also, there should be a quantification of what the Service Professionals will do as well.

 

For instance, the S&L therapist may need to visit the school at the beginning of each term to observe the child and check progress and to then design and model the programme that will be delivered by the staff to your child. The time to be spent by the S&L therapist in doing the above should also be quantified - eg. 2 hours in the first week of term followed by one hour for each of the next three weeks. Otherwise, you may have the S & L 'monitoring' - per the terms of the statement - but this could be done every five years if it is not specific. Also it is important that they model the programme to the staff.

 

With communication being a major difficulty for our kids, S&L needs to be belted and braced in the statement. The same criteria should apply to other services such as Physio and OT as well.

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL

[phasmid]

I couldn't agree more. It could be seen as being pedantic by some to make the statement go into that sort of detail. However you only have to read this forum to see how badly things can go if a statement is in any way ambiguos. Dot every i and cross every t and, having done that, get it looked at by someone who knows their way around them. Then pick it apart all over again. If there is something missing get it added, if there is something that shouldn't be there then get it removed.

 

Reject it until your totally happy with it. Errors occur, things get mis-heard or mis-quoted all the time. Don't take it as read that the right support will be forthcoming if the statement is not nailed to the floor!

[helenl53]

I think you have to look at it along the lines of

 

"what EXACTLY did they not do" and you can only do this if the statement tells EXACTLY what, and for how long and by whom.

 

I think that we get fobbed off with statements that really are not explicit and enforceable. I don't think that there are many on this forum who have not had to struggle and fight for a statement and I think that even then, we are subjected to the great statement scam - they give us a statement if they really are forced to - but then make it as scant as they can. I find it scandalous.

 

Please, please everyone, get NAS or IPSEA or someone with some knowledge of the system to check the statement. You will save yourself a lot of heartache if you do.

 

How easy is it to get me on a soapbox these days!

 

Best wishes

 

Helen

[annie]

Hear, hear Helen and Phasmid, from another soapbox freak

 

Sorry just had to get my 2p in

 

Annie

XX

[helenl53]

Hi Annie,

 

I just get so mad.

 

We are a bit like sitting ducks and it really get my dander up (I hope that 'dander' is not a rude thing!)

 

Hyde park next - which reminds me - on Sunday 25th there is the big Autism Rally in London organised by NAS

 

I would have liked to go to the NAS conference but I could not afford it - but don't even let me go there this evening!

 

Do you think I suffer from phantom PMT? - I seem to get a grumpy head on round about this time every month

 

I have to go and chill and just imagine what it would be like to have Johny Depp as my old man - shucks - a girl gotta have her dreams (or Caroles nightmares!)

 

HelenL

[phasmid]

I would have liked to go to the NAS conference but I could not afford it - but don't even let me go there this evening! 

 

Grrrrrrrrr!

 

Only printable comment about the NAS conference prices I can post!