Found some interesting stuff

[Viper]

Hi.

 

I have been trawling the WWW to find things to back up my theory that Ben is unable to use a toilet. Guess what, there is a recognised condition called Pauresis that is a phobia of toilets. I found this.

 

Shy Bladder.

This involves an inhibition about urinating in public toilets due to fears of being watched. The fear prevents the person from urinating even when desperate. This problem is far more common in men than in women.

 

Toilet phobia.

This term is used to describe a wide variety of fears with toilets. Sufferers may be unable to urinate/defecate. Fear of useing public toilets because of anxieties around cleanliness of toilet, or fear that others may scrutinise them whilst urinating.

 

I feel so relieved to have found this stuff and can now go to todays meeting with the head, armed with the facts.

 

I feel now I can put forward Bens case much better and even point out that they are denying him his human rights and even go as far as saying they are being cruel to him a form of abuse in my oppinion.

 

Wish me luck.

Viper.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Viper

[mel_jayne]

Hi viper,

 

GOOD LUCK <'>

[annie]

Good luck Viper,

 

Will be thinking of you.

 

Annie

<'>

[phasmid]

A child in my class has a real problem with using the toilets in school. We do whatever it takes in order to let this pupil do what they need to do. We are lucky as we have a toilet in a small classroom next to ours that they can use instead of the one in the classroom. We cope with it but don't make a big issue out of it. They know they can go elsewhere if they don't want to use the class toilet. Perhaps he could even use the staff toilet if he is more comfortable in there...who would it harm?

[KarenT]

Go get 'em Viper!

 

Karen

x

[littlenemo]

unfortunately there are health and safety regulations that make it awkward for schools to let children use staff toilets.

 

I think it's something to do with children having a higher level of resistance to things like worms but are more likely to spread them around than adults so the adults need to be protected from.

We had a discussion about letting girls who had started periods have a bit more privacy in a staff meeting at my last school but while the staff were willing to share with the few extra girls H&S advice said no.

 

but the disability issue may help get round H&S

 

you could talk to disability rights commission - they can be very helpful and may even talk to school for you on something like this

 

Zemanski

Edited September 16, 2005 by littlenemo

[DaisyProudfoot]

Good luck Viper - they can't ignore you, it's wrong to do so

Daisy

[streamdreams]

found this;

 

http://www.shybladder.co.uk/The UK Paruresis Association

 

I have never heard this befor but I have never been able to use a urinal if any one was in the room, always have to have a cubical.

 

never realy thought about it befor

 

best of luck

 

J

[katkin]

Let us know how you get on, thinking of you, Kat

[Viper]

Thanks for the link SJ makes interesting reading and I've posted a message.

 

Thanks for all your best wishes, I am going to pull out all the cards today. The human rights angle and the discrimination card. The gloves are off.

 

Viper

[Tylers-mum]

Viper - How did the meeting go???

Thinking of you. <'>

 

~ J

Edited September 16, 2005 by Tylers-mum

[Viper]

Hi all.

 

We had the meeting and things are a bit better but not what we want. They have arranged for Ben to have six weeks of 1 to1 play therapy with a psych for 45 mins a week. during this time they will try to help Ben with his phobia.

 

In the meantime the head said he can go to school and have aranged for him to use the special facility they have for disabled children. He has his own very clean toilet where he can go on his own if he needs to. But ... if he can't go they will ring me to collect him and he is not allowed to go back for the rest of the day.

 

The head said she didn't want to "reward " ben by putting a nappy on him. How she thinks this will be a reward I don't know. Ben dosen't like it any more than we do. The thing I am most worried about is, when Ben realises that he gets to go home if he needs a wee he will be coming home 5 mins after I have left him.

 

I wonder sometimes if the head has ever actually spoken to a child in her life.

 

We will see how things pan out, the one thing I can say is the school are trying to help, well the suport team are anyway, not sure about the head though.

 

Viper.

[illy]

My Son is like this he is getting better wheen we were trying to train him he used to kick scream etc with us.

 

Good luck with the meeting

Hugs illy

[elaine1]

I do wish you luck, let us know whats going on.

[phasmid]

There may be H&S issues with using the staff toilets. In my school the gents loo is also the diasbled loo. So children can use it too. I appreciate this may not be the case in all schools. I still think that any school that is bothered ought to be trying to find a solution. At least they seem to be trying something to help now. That's progress.

[bid]

Viper,

 

Could you get anything in writing from Ben's GP or consultant, stating that this is a real problem? I know it's not right, but the Head might listen more to another professional?

 

If Ben had a physical problem, the Head would accomodate his needs...

 

I would also be concerned about sending him home if he doesn't 'go'. Have you contacted the Disability Rights Commission (08457 622633) about this? To me it sounds like an illegal form of exclusion. Your son should not be missing school because of this!

 

The DRC backed us up when my son's mainstream school tried to make us take him home from school when he was allowed to opt out of group PE on mental health grounds

 

If it was me I would not accept this 'solution'

 

Bid

[phasmid]

In the meantime the head said he can go to school and have aranged for him to use the special facility they have for disabled children. He has his own very clean toilet where he can go on his own if he needs to. But ... if he can't go they will ring me to collect him and he is not allowed to go back for the rest of the day.

 

Well spotted Bid!!!

 

This is illegal . They will in effect being excluding your child directly because of his disability . This is simply not allowed . They MUST take any reasonable action required to deal with this...even if it means building him a toilet of his own! Extreme maybe but they'd not hesitate about providing a child using a wheelchair with access ramps to the building, would they?

 

DRC will have a field day with this.

 

Every time they do this they have excluded your son. Mrs Phasmid has gone out. She deals with this side of things better than me but I'll give you what I have. Each school day is divided into two sessions. If a child is excluded in the morning for the whole day that is two fixed term exclusion sessions. An afternoon would be one F.T exclusion session. They are required to give you a letter on each occasion stating why they have issued a fixed term exclusion. There are a limited number of these that can be issued (for WHATEVER reason) before the school discipline and behaviour policy would require that this must be brought to the attention of the governors. Set number of fixed exclusions issued exceeds a certain number in a term for ANY reason then the school should consider permenant exclusion. They will be open to all sorts of problems if they try and use this as a solution to the issues your son is presenting them with. What they have suggested with the 1-1 is something worth trying but the other bit is not on .

 

You need this in writing from the school. Either as stated above or from an occasion when they have issued a fixed term exclusion and sent him home to use the toilet! As soon as you have that DRC!

[Viper]

Phasmid, can I get this straight, if they exclude him a certain amount of times they can then permanantly exclude him?

 

If that is the case then it all makes sence. The head has been trying to stop him from attending full time even before he started. If you could just let me know if I have got this right I would be greatful

 

Thanks, Viper.

[phasmid]

Done it again. Mrs Phasmid has just gone out to catch the bank. I ran what I'd posted by her last night when she came in. I'll get her to dig out her education law references on this. She chairs admission and appeal panels for our LEA and is sh*t hot on procedure. She has had children returned to school before now because the school got their own discipline procedure wrong. She know her way around this backwards. I used to but since I stopped being a governor I haven't kept up with all the changes. Can you PM me with some details please:

 

Age

 

LEA

 

IEP/statement details?

 

Anything else that you think may be relevant.

 

 

Many schools seem to think they can ask for a child to go home at lunchtime or miss school sessions for the reasons you have cited and that is OK. It ###### well isn't! These count as fixed term exclusions and rules have to be followed. They often forget this! If they exceed a set number of fixed term exclusions over a set period of time they have to follow regulations, this can lead to permenant exclusion. I'll get her to explain all later. The above details will help her check the correct things.

 

PS. They have to give a writen reason each and every time they exclude a child, whetehr that is for a morning, afternoon or both OR a lunchtime. If they want you to remove your child from the premises that is a fixed term exclusion!

Edited September 17, 2005 by phasmid

[phasmid]

Doing some digging before Mrs P gets back. Have found the following:

 

 

Fixed period (non-permanent) exclusion

 

A child who gets into serious trouble at school can be excluded for a fixed period of time. You should know that:

 

only the headteacher or acting headteacher can exclude a child

the school can't give a fixed period (non-permanent) exclusion for longer than a total of 45 days in any school year

if your child is excluded for longer than a day, the school must provide them with work that must be marked

the school should call you on the day an exclusion is given and follow up with a letter that explains the period of exclusion, the reasons for it and who to contact if you?d like to give your views

children can be excluded only if they have seriously broken school rules or if their presence at school would harm other children or disrupt learning

 

This is from:here

 

 

Lots via this link

 

In particular sections;

 

9

 

21 f)

 

24 - which DOES NOT apply in your case.

 

25 !!!!

 

31

 

33

 

34

 

Sections 42 - 47 in particular sect 46

 

 

More here

 

Sections:

 

69 -70. If the governors have not had the training sessions laid out in these regulations then any action they take as part of the discipline procedures are not lawful. This is new in the last few months and many schools are not aware of it or have not taken the steps to address it. Ask for a copy of the discipline and behaviour policy. Chaeck the date of the last review! It must be less than 12 months ago to be a legal document...even if they just rubber stamp the last one they HAVE to review it!

 

 

Just a bit for you to be getting on with!

[nellie]

Unlawful exclusion and discrimination!!! I would be asking IPSEA for advice and support.

 

Nellie <'> <'>

[phasmid]

Mrs Phasmid has returned . I have gone through the links with her and she says they are exactly the points she would have put up. So we are on the right track . The head is on very, very dodgy ground with this .

[Viper]

Mr and Mrs P,

 

Thanks for the links. Makes heavy reading. Not sure what to do with it now, either DRC or IPSEA. Will have to take some time to work through all this.

 

One thing I always worry about is whether the school will take anything out on my kids, you know, treat them badly for revenge. But we have played fair and got no where I think it's time to step up a gear.

 

Will keep you informed.

 

Viper.

[Suze]

Viper...hope your o.k. this sh*t situation must be driving up those stress levels <'> . Mr/MRS PHASMID............. ,WOW what would we do without you.Viper just want to wish you all the best .....to be frank the head sounds like a pl*nker!.........Why was,nt access to the disabled toilet agreed before school????????? Surely if they had been in a mind to help Bens anxiety they would have suggested this.The issue of the nappy is .why can,t they just let him use one what is the problem.The head sounds like a prison officer.Sorry rant over .........................just wanted to add at my kids school the dis-abled loo is the ladies/staffs.My daughter spends periods of time in a wheelchair and we have had no probs using this loo!!!!!!!!School were most helpful. The very best Viper I feel totally incensed by Bens treatment so can,t imagine how you feel <'> .

[phasmid]

Viper, the thing to do with it is to make the school aware that you have been doing some digging. It's amazing how schools change their stance when they find themselves dealing with anyone who knows how to use the system!

 

Hang in there.

 

Phas.

[phasmid]

Good luck today.

[Primine]

Hello all. I am an IT trained in ABA and IBI and thought I might help explain the head's decision.

 

I can't say one way or another if what the head was justified in determining his program, there are simply too many details that cannot be fully explained in any chat forum. Every child has different circumstances with their position on the spectrum. But when he said that he doesn't want to "reward" not going to the toilet it is a reference to conditioning. If the child is really afraid of the toilet then giving him a nappy would keep him from having to go near the toilette. Further down the road it may be impossible to get him off the nappy. The child may have learned that if he holds it long enough people will cave and get him a nappy. It would be extremely difficult and time consuming to extinguish.

 

I do not think (in my experience at our centre) that it would be right to send him home if he doesn't go. I would recommend (while I do not have my PhD or Masters yet this is done in my centre) that a schedule be set up where the child goes to the bathroom every 45-60 minutes (always the same length of time). If the child excretes or urinates he should be heavily rewarded... preferably with some sort of edible. (cookie?) If he does not go then he is returned to class.

 

This assumes that the child is not scared to approach or sit on the toilet. There are many different fears associated with going to the bathroom. Fear of sitting, fear of bare bottom, fear of the flushing and each fear needs to be treated differently; usually it is treated with shaping.

 

I'd discus this with the head.

 

Feel free to pass my ideas on to the head, but PLEASE DO NOT REFERENCE ME AS A PROFESSIONAL. I am still very new and still have much to learn. And again, there may be several hundred factors I don't know.