How many Adult Aspergers are on this forum

[KMC]

I'm curious to see the ratio of parents with/without diagnosis vs the number of adults with/without diagnosis on this forum. Please pick an answer from the Poll.

[bid]

I've voted...I've got my assessment at Cambridge next month

 

I like the mix on this forum.

 

I've lurked on some other forums. The ones for people with AS were quite scary, and others for parents I found quite negative towards autism, with no real adult AS membership. This is the only forum I've found with parents with young adult children with AS, too.

 

I like the generally positive attitude to autism here, although I think/hope people feel able to have a moan too!

 

I guess it might feel a little different for you, KMC, because here most of the adults with AS are also parents.

 

All in all I think our forum is something really special

 

Bid

[KMC]

I guess what I see on here sometimes are lots of NT parents struggling with AS diagnosed children. That doesnt mean everyone is like that but in some cases, there are NT parents who for obvious reasons cant understand their AS kids. They can see the "differences" but dont always know how to deal with them.... Hence my question asking how many AS adults are on here. With the number of members, I would expect that there are some AS adults out there BUT I think many of them are hiding in the shadows watching.

[Canopus]

This forum is mainly populated by parents rather than adults with AS. I am a member of several forums and some of those for adults with AS can be strange or even scary places. The reason why I use this forum is because I want to help and advise people, although my advice is not always well received by the mainly NT parents. I want children to be happy rather than end up with a miserable childhood as a result of parents doing what they think is best at the time, but isn't the best for their children. One of my biggest concerns is that too many NT parents of children with AS spend a lot of time and effort fighting the secondary school system just so their children can access the National Curriculum and take GCSEs. What their children would benefit more from is learning life skills and how the real world works, which isn't taught in schools. Don't confuse life skills with social skills because they are completely different things.

 

I'm sure that thousands of people read this forum that are not registered judging from the number of guest members. Traffic statistics will probably reveal more. My AS websites manage to attract traffic from Canada, Norway, New Zealand, and Singapore despite them being very British.

[jb1964]

Although I've ticked the box that my daughter has been diagnosed ASD - to be honest I've always thought my hubbie has sometimes displayed behaviour that was not rational (if you know what I mean) - and since her diagnosis and being on this site I've realised that he is probably somewhere on the spectrum.

 

I think the mix on the forum is good and that I get a perspective from many angles. You see people offering advice because they've already been there when either they or their children were small, you see problems that you'll face in both the future and just around the corner from both a parents view and individuals with ASD.

 

Take care,

Jb

[Mumble]

KMC,

 

You poll has already been done (of sorts) by Baddad in this subforum:

 

Baddad's Poll

 

Bid, I totally agree with you, that the mix of people and positive views (except when I come along ) is what makes this forum stand out from others. Also I'd have to say on a small note (but clearly something that the people putting this forum together thought about), in comparison to others, this one is 'easy' to read in terms of layout and design - most people stick to plain text except to highlight something - some forums contain all sorts of mixtures of fonts, colours, etc and strange choices of colours, making it painful to read (of course that does mean that I spend too much time on this forum!!).

 

As others have said - the AS specific forums are scary places. I have lurked in a few, but that's all - this is the only forum I have joined. Many of them are full of obsenities (they are not moderated in the same way as this) and of people 'getting' at others. Whilst that can happen here (I know I'm guilty here) the modertation ensures that things don't get out of hand and I think people are generally understanding of why others might take things the wrong way. It was reccommended after my diagnosis, knwoing that I have real problems with face to face communication, that I make contact with different forums for AS people, particularly ones for students. Now I know I complain about my uni on here, but this is not on the academic side, but on the support/student services side, such as the difficulties I've had with accommodation. I would never start ranting on here about my lecturers, profs etc (and that's not just because they give me excellent support, but because I think that doing so just perpetuates such problems and creates a vicious circle of everything being wrong). I do feel, and I hope this doesn't offend anyone, that many of the AS student forums are full of students who are quite frankly being lazy and seeking to use their AS as an excuse to do nothing. Of course universities have a responsibility to ensure that I and other AS students have equal access, but this doesn't mean I should get some sort of favourable treatment just because I am AS, rather than because I need a particular adjustment because AS causes a hurdle that other students would not have to overcome. Sorry, rant over.

 

KMC - I cannot see the logical link between your statement of NT parents not understanding their AS kids (which I would argue with anyway) and asking how many AS adults are on here. Of course NT parents won't always understand their AS kids, but they probably don't understand their NT kids all the time. The same for AS parents of AS kids and AS parents of NT kids. People don't understand each other all the time (or perhaps much of the time). I've always thought that my understanding was very poor, but as my supervisor pointed out to me when I was getting frustrated at not understanding something - I have more awareness and so probably see things I don't understand more - NTs just think they understand. Back to parents - how many NT (particularly slightly older NT) parents understand their NT teenagers - 'Kevin' springs to mind!! We all have to work to understand each other, and more often than not we will fail, but by working together we can get closer to a shared understanding. The NT parents posting on here want to understand their ASD children. They are working on that shared understanding that AS adults on here can help with, but it must be remembered that all AS individuals are just that, individuals. I can look at a situation and say, 'perhaps this is the issue, try this' - it may or may not work. I can't give all the answers, but between us, drawing bits of our experiences together, we can help people to understand. To say simply that they don't understand is very deterministic - it suggests that they will never understand. This is true, but only in so far as no one will ever understand anyone completely. Even if I was to explain to others exactly how I perceive the world, they would not understand. This would not be because they are not listening, or because they do not want to know, but because we all comprehend what we read and hear through our own constructions and perceptions - it is not possible to make a neutral hearing or reading or someone elses experiences. Rather than condemn parents on here for not understanding, we should be embracing that fact that these parents are making that step towards understanding - that's the hardest part - if people don't want to know, there is very little we can do to make them listen. Parents on here, to me, seem open to suggestions, and that must be viewed as a positive.

 

As for AS adults 'hiding in the shadows' - I assume you mean they read with out identifying themselves. If this is the case, and it probably is, why should this be a problem. People have to assess support options available and make use of what they find helpful in a way they are comfortable with. I am comfortable posting on here and find it a wonderful source of support - something I don't get from any other area of my life - but put me in a face to face social setting and I am the one trying to merge into the wallpaper and pretend I don't exist - it is way out of my current comfort zone. I'm going to be very interested to see how I cope in Greenwich - I think my tutor thinks I am totally mad for even contemplating having this meetup given that I find groups of more than two people difficult and won't consider the thought of a social group. I suspect that given that the people going know me in part from my postings, and are AS aware, is will be ok, not easy, but ok. However, if I do find I can't cope and end up 'hiding in the shadows' is that really a bad thing - at least I will have made it to the shadows of a group.

 

One of my biggest concerns is that too many NT parents of children with AS spend a lot of time and effort fighting the secondary school system just so their children can access the National Curriculum and take GCSEs. What their children would benefit more from is learning life skills and how the real world works, which isn't taught in schools.

Canopus, I'm not going to go into this in detail here - this is not the place - but I am very concerned by this as I'm sure other AS adults who have been through both special and mainstream, and parents of AS children will be. The 'real world' works on access arrangements - academically, GCSEs give you access to A levels, A levels to Degrees etc. Work wise, different levels of qualifications are required to access different employment. By denying access to the NC, you are denying access to the real workd we all have to belong to. Yes, there are huge problems with the school system, but by excluding, we are essentially giving up on making things better - to say AS individuals need life skills instead of academic qualifications instantly creates a them and us situation. For me, and I am only speaking from my experience, it is access to academic qualifications that have allowed me to function as well as I have. This will of course be different for different people and yes there are cases of people achieving without qualifications. AS children wouldn't benefit more from life skills - they would benefit (as would any NT child) from having these alongside other subjects (and indeed this is covered in part). The parents who are fighting are fighting because their cildren have a right to a holistic education.

 

KMC - out of interest, in your poll options, you have clumped together AS and HFA for children but put these as separate diagnoses for adults. Is there any reasoning behind this?

 

 

Rambling Mumble

[Tally]

Hi KMC,

 

I'm an adult aspie, with no children.

 

When I first was looking for people connected with AS on the internet I joined 3 forums. The other 2 were intended mostly for people with AS, whereas the main (but not sole) aim of this one seems to be to support people with aspie/autie children. But this is the one where I felt most comfortable and most welcome, and is the one I've decided to stick with.

[Bagpuss]

Well I voted as a parent. I have to agree, I find this forum a wonderful place to be. It is very well moderated, which is one of reasons I feel it is so successful. Definately a great mix here, and I find it just as interesting reading the posts from adults with AS/HFA as I do from parents. It's so worthwhile being able to read someone elses perspective on a situation. The adults with AS on the forum have helped me enormously when I've tried to understand my dd's or struggled with a dilemma. I've never checked out the adult AS sites, for obvious reasons, so can't comment on them. I did join another ASD site, but found I struggled to keep up with both forums. Have to say too Mumble, that I totally agree about fonts etc......some forums I've been on are so distracting with lots of different colours, fonts, piccies, flashing signatures etc......sometimes struggle to just read clearly the posts, and this forum is very easy to understand and follow. Kevin.....crikey, wait till you meet my ds next week.....he is a right Kevin....and nope, your right, I don't understand him sometimes and he's NT.

[Canopus]

The 'real world' works on access arrangements - academically, GCSEs give you access to A levels, A levels to Degrees etc. Work wise, different levels of qualifications are required to access different employment. By denying access to the NC, you are denying access to the real workd we all have to belong to.

 

This is not strictly true. Some time ago I posted a useful article about exams and qualifications. You might like to read it to find out more about alternative courses and entry requirements to HEA.

 

Yes, there are huge problems with the school system, but by excluding, we are essentially giving up on making things better - to say AS individuals need life skills instead of academic qualifications instantly creates a them and us situation. For me, and I am only speaking from my experience, it is access to academic qualifications that have allowed me to function as well as I have. This will of course be different for different people and yes there are cases of people achieving without qualifications. AS children wouldn't benefit more from life skills - they would benefit (as would any NT child) from having these alongside other subjects (and indeed this is covered in part). The parents who are fighting are fighting because their cildren have a right to a holistic education.

 

I'm not trying to pitch academic subjects vs life skills. However there is a big difference between providing academic courses in subjects children are interested in and feel they have a use for in the future, or trying to access the full NC and gain 10 GCSEs even in subjects children dislike or feel they have no use for. This second strategy was something my parents followed, and I have encountered many other parents of AS children who have adopted a similar strategy. Sometimes parents who are fighting battles with the school system, or trying to ensure the second strategy is implemented, end up overlooking life skills. A local AS group teaches life skills, but some parents just want to talk about sorting out problems with the state school system and make little use of the life skills sessions offered. I have told parents about the importance of life skills and not to get uptight if their children are doing badly are certain subjects they aren't interested in, but it rarely registers. Perhaps it is something that many NT people are blind to but certain adults with AS can see. This is one reason why it is useful to have adults with AS contributing on this forum.

[Bard]

/quote/I have told parents about the importance of life skills and not to get uptight if their children are doing badly are certain subjects they aren't interested in, but it rarely registers./quote/

 

I would be delighted if people stopped trying to teach B French. I also think that team sports would not be missed. He manages very well in the mainstream curriculum, it's mixing with peers that's a pain.

 

And although KMC may have a point:

I guess what I see on here sometimes are lots of NT parents struggling with AS diagnosed children. That doesnt mean everyone is like that but in some cases, there are NT parents who for obvious reasons cant understand their AS kids. They can see the "differences" but dont always know how to deal with them....

 

What is the alternative to struggling to understand your children, NT or AS?

Edited July 3, 2007 by Bard

[David Matthew Baker]

I'm not voting on the poll as I don't think I really fit in anywhere. Really I am a starting professional who is just embarking upon a career and has an interest in this area. For that reason I find this forum interesting as it helps me learn about the issues faced by people with autistic spectrum disorders and how they cope with them. At the same time whilst I class myself as a neurotypical I am probably a bit odd. At least that is what I have always been told by friends for my entire life. I don't seem to fully fit the criteria to be diagnosed autistic (or any related condition that I know of) but certainly display some of the traits that are associated. My main problem is that I tend to be too sociable to fit and enjoy been in others company. Also I'm never sure diagnosing ones self is a good idea. That said even if I am a bit different I don't mind and I think that is what makes the world interesting. If we were all the same it would be a boring place. Most people I meet seem to get on with me too so it isn't as if been a little different causes any major problems.

 

I find this forum particularly useful as we often have reasoned debates about issues. On top of that everyone on the whole has a good sense of humour and helps cheer each other up when you/they are feeling down. There is a real sense of community here and everyone is respectful of each other. Yes there are the occasional misunderstandings but I've rarely seen them not end up resolved in a sensitive and sensible manor. The reason I have decided that autism is a field that I would like to work in also is to do with this idea of community. In the past I have often felt as if I functioned on the edge of groups. Since working at the special school I feel that I have become a more integral part of various groups. I am fairly often invited out with the staff from the special school and that wouldn't happen if I was just on the outskirts. It may just be a certain type of personality is required to work in such a field. One that is more thoughtful about their impact on others and more accepting of differences.

 

When it comes to understanding others I rather agree with Mumble. You can try and guess but I'm not sure you can ever really understand. I have found with a few students (including a couple at the special school) that I seem to operate so to speak on the same wavelength as them so could often predict their needs but that was only because they seemed to think in a similar way to myself. Also with some other students you learnt signs that showed when they were having difficulty, filling their pants (knees lifted in the case I'm thinking of) that again mean you can step in and help them. I'm not sure I would describe this as understanding others though more noticing patterns. Only when I see a degree of reflection of myself in someone else would I ever say that I can understand someone a little bit. My friends at my present school I can tell when they are teasing most of the time but occasionally have had me looking worried. (To the extent where the SENCO has decided to tell me they're joking.) The only way I can say I learn to understand others at all is listening to how other people describe their experiences as that way you have something you can relate a problem or issue to. I think that is another reason this board is so good. There are so many people who are willing to be quite open and talk about their past experiences. Even if they perhaps are ones that they would perhaps rather not remember.

 

On the issue of education I can see where certain members are coming from. I have wondered a few times why secondary schools won't consider teaching students skills. When I say that though I don't mean at the expense of the national curriculum I think it should be there in addition. With a lot of the students I presently work with a lot of the problems we face are with them not understanding how to tackle certain problems. If the education system was setup in such a way that we first taught the skills these students needed you would probably find they would perform much better. I'm not even sure the national curriculum needs to change. In someways it is just the opinions of teachers. They seem to have something against trying to teach skills. Without teaching them though is it really a suprise that students don't really know how to do research, how to tackle problems or where provided how to best access support. One reason I liked the special school I worked at so much was the more able students were taught the national curriculum work appropriate for their age range. It was just built upon a range of skills that the school also taught them. This enabled them to function very well on the national curriculum work and often to achieve very good results. Even the students who were quite low ability were taught work on the national curriculum it was just modified to be appropriate to their level and they did seem to enjoy undertaking the work. Just with them they more went for teaching skills by utilising work from the national curriculum. I don't think I'll be telling them this on my teacher training though. I have a feeling it wouldn't go down very well. Hopefully I can manage to get some special needs lessons whilst training though. One school that is part of the scheme has a wing for students with physical disabilities and I was told if I still wanted to work with special needs they would place me there and try and arrange for me to do a few lessons in that area of the school. Unfortunatally the course director is changing so will need to arrange this with another person.

 

Seem to be starting to ramble on a bit now so will wrap this up. Can always post again later. I'd like to end this post though with a thank you to everyone on here. You are all worth an awful lot.

 

Thanks and all the best, David.

[mrs.ddh]

What if you need to vote twice? The poll doesnt allow that! I have a son who is autistic, and I am no doubt as well but have only been self-diagnosed, and my son and husband both think I am, lol...

 

And, I dont know how to set up a poll, but I have always wondered what the ratio is of people with an ASD and mixed parentage? That is parents from different countries, not necessarily race, if you know what I mean. My own little world has shown that three people I know are of mixed parentage: British/French and British/American. Can someone set up a poll for me to establish this? Please?

 

ddh

[Shnoing]

What if you need to vote twice? The poll doesnt allow that! I have a son who is autistic, and I am no doubt as well but have only been self-diagnosed, and my son and husband both think I am, lol...

...

 

Indeed, if you want to vote "yes" or "?", you cannot tell if (one of) your child(ren) has been dx'ed, too.

[Canopus]

would be delighted if people stopped trying to teach B French. I also think that team sports would not be missed. He manages very well in the mainstream curriculum, it's mixing with peers that's a pain.

 

The question is whether he is happy at school or not. I don't think it is possible for someone with AS to lead a conventional teenage life, so it doesn't really matter if he relates badly with his peers unless it ends up making him unhappy. Some parents I know get so stressed out and unhappy over trivial issues like not being invited to birthday parties, or participating in sports day.

 

And although KMC may have a point:

I guess what I see on here sometimes are lots of NT parents struggling with AS diagnosed children. That doesnt mean everyone is like that but in some cases, there are NT parents who for obvious reasons cant understand their AS kids. They can see the "differences" but dont always know how to deal with them....

 

What is the alternative to struggling to understand your children, NT or AS?

 

Listen to more advice given by adults with AS. It might conflict your (ingrained) beliefs or even come across as insulting from time to time, but remember we have no vested interests or bosses to please, unlike so called professionals and school staff.

[CEJesson]

I am an adult, well...a teenager with diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome. It is good to see a mix of ages on this forum - it means there is a greater variety of opinions on the site from thos suffering vs not suffering, from parents vs non parents, from students vs former students. etc.

[Bard]

The question is whether he is happy at school or not. I don't think it is possible for someone with AS to lead a conventional teenage life, so it doesn't really matter if he relates badly with his peers unless it ends up making him unhappy. Some parents I know get so stressed out and unhappy over trivial issues like not being invited to birthday parties, or participating in sports day.

Listen to more advice given by adults with AS. It might conflict your (ingrained) beliefs or even come across as insulting from time to time, but remember we have no vested interests or bosses to please, unlike so called professionals and school staff.

 

B enjoys school and I have no problems getting him there. He participates enthusiastically in lessons, except French and PE, nor does he mind the detentions and segregated times he has after hitting peers he has related badly to.

When I am struggling to understand something, I gather as much information from as many sources as I can on the subject, and then I hypothesise, test and experiment to see what works. So I have read and listened to many opinions. Adults with AS are one very valuable source, and I have learnt a lot from people on this, and other forums.

However, without wanting to be insulting, each experience is specific to that individual, and therefore subjective. And sometimes the experiences described are a decade or more in the past, and in some instances, circumstances may have altered over time. This is relevant to parenting any child, with or without ASD. Which is why I continue to try and be the best parent I can by being adaptable and flexible in my approach to parenting.

[Canopus]

However, without wanting to be insulting, each experience is specific to that individual, and therefore subjective. And sometimes the experiences described are a decade or more in the past, and in some instances, circumstances may have altered over time. This is relevant to parenting any child, with or without ASD. Which is why I continue to try and be the best parent I can by being adaptable and flexible in my approach to parenting.

 

I am not saying that adults with AS are infallible in any way.

[Bard]

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I love my children, and want them to be happy. But I also know that what makes me happy is not necessarily the same thing.

To be honest, I find B and I have an enormous number of interests in common, and he is my companion of choice if I'm going anywhere, over my daughter or husband.

No one is always right, or infallible, but 20 years ago very few people had heard of AS, and even fewer had any understanding of it. Our knowledge is growing, but listening and sharing is the only way for any sort of understanding to develop.

In the same way, my 16 year old faces a very different adolescence to the one that I had, so although some of our experiences may be comparable, some won't.

The fact that so many post here with various different connections to ASDs is what makes this forum invaluable, because of the breadth of experiences that it offers.

[bikergal]

I was diagnosed 2 months ago, I also have a daughter with an ASD. I like this forum because it does have some AS adults as well as children. Understanding both my children is an ongoing struggle for me .

[KMC]

Wow - there are some incredible responses on here. I didnt expect a poll to start this much of a debate!

 

Sorry I havent been around but have been working manically. There are some things on here I should respond but dont have the time to do right now. I will try and get to them on the weekend.

 

Canopus has a good point - we adults with AS can potentially help you with your kids because we may be able to explain some behaviour that your kids may not be able to communicate. One thing that is worth remembering is that most parents want their children to be different or special in some way. As a child with AS though, all you really want is to fit in with the other kids. That is an immediate conflict.

 

Sometimes I read through these forums and I see parents who are deadset on proving little Johnny has AS and I think, well if he has, the one thing little Johnny wants is to be the same as the other kids, to have friends and be accepted. I then see the parents shouting from the rafters about how little Johnny has AS and now all the Govt Organisations are getting involved and the school and other kids have been informed... there goes little Johnnys chance of ever fitting in normally.

 

I figure the AS people on the forum may understand what I have said, I'm not sure the NT people will agree with any of it.

 

Anyway... off to work :-)

[mrs.ddh]

As for AS adults 'hiding in the shadows' - I assume you mean they read with out identifying themselves. If this is the case, and it probably is, why should this be a problem. People have to assess support options available and make use of what they find helpful in a way they are comfortable with. I am comfortable posting on here and find it a wonderful source of support - something I don't get from any other area of my life - but put me in a face to face social setting and I am the one trying to merge into the wallpaper and pretend I don't exist - it is way out of my current comfort zone. I'm going to be very interested to see how I cope in Greenwich - I think my tutor thinks I am totally mad for even contemplating having this meetup given that I find groups of more than two people difficult and won't consider the thought of a social group. I suspect that given that the people going know me in part from my postings, and are AS aware, is will be ok, not easy, but ok. However, if I do find I can't cope and end up 'hiding in the shadows' is that really a bad thing - at least I will have made it to the shadows of a group.

 

Hiya Mumble,

 

I just wanted to say that I read your post with great interest and found you to be a very insightful and articulate person. I have an AS son (who I adore btw) and what you had written has helped me to understand him more and I thank you for that. I wish you all the best in Greenwich! As for hiding in the shadows, someone has to be there to keep an eye on those who choose to stand in the full glare of the sun.

 

ddh

[Mumble]

Sometimes I read through these forums and I see parents who are deadset on proving little Johnny has AS and I think, well if he has, the one thing little Johnny wants is to be the same as the other kids, to have friends and be accepted. I then see the parents shouting from the rafters about how little Johnny has AS and now all the Govt Organisations are getting involved and the school and other kids have been informed... there goes little Johnnys chance of ever fitting in normally.

 

I figure the AS people on the forum may understand what I have said, I'm not sure the NT people will agree with any of it.

 

I'm sorry, KMC, but I do think you are making some rather polemic assumptions here. Firstly it does not have to be an 'all or nothing' agreement or disagreement - people should be able to take a smattering of whatever they feel comfortable with in forming their opinions. We are all, AS, NT or some other ND mix, a product of our socialisation and enculturation. It is this that makes us individuals each with our own unique way of responding to and coping with the world. I do not respond to things in particular ways simply because I am AS; AS is a part of and interacts with who I am in a complex, messy and often unpredictable way. The unpredictable nature of individuals' responses is what makes people interesting, but it is also something that makes the world a very confusing place (and at times, because of this, very frightening and scary).

 

People have to be able to come, without any external pressures, to their own decision about seeking a diagnosis either for themselves or for a child. Only the individuals concerned can know what is probably right, or at least what feels more right, within their particular circumstances. Those of us looking in from the outside can give our perspective, but we, as much as those we are talking to, have to realise/accept that a perspective, by it's very nature is loaded with 'ourselves'; our identity. Transferability of experiences is not direct because we are individuals. I had a fraught year seeking diagnosis following a lifetime of knowing that there was something different. I've had to try to understand my mother's decision when I was a teenager not to have me diagnosed. However, I can only understand this from my perspective; yes I can think about what rationale she might have been using, I can get cross at what I see as her blinkered handicapped/normal distinction and at her shame response to my severely autistic brother, but I am getting cross at these from my perspective, because I cannot know or understand, fully, her perspective (and that is not as AS feature, but gernerally applicable to all). I had a wonderful conversation with my supervisor earlier this week in which he suggested that labels do help. Now I was initially a bit taken aback, but I think there is a lot of sense in this. Labels both help and hinder depending on the context within which they are used. For you, KMC, you appear to see labels and support as unhelpful as it singles out. This is a very valid point to make but at the same time, I would suggest from my perspective, that many undiagnosed AS children/adults are/feel singled out by their peers and society anyway. For me, having a diagnosis has helped me to begin to make sense of who I am, where I am now, why I am where I am and what I might want for myself in the future. It can now also be used to help those people who want to understand, to being to understand me. Yes it has opened me up to being very questionning about myself, but in the long term, self-understanding is a vital tool in progress. I'm not convinced that 'Little Johnny' does 'want to be the same as everyone else'. It may be that society has a pressure to conform, and external pressures drive an assumption that we would all want 'normality', but the whole notion of normality is self-perpetuating. Norms are socially constructed 'ways of being' based on what the majority of the population does. We should celebrate individuals rather than norm/non-norm fitting. Labels do not have to mean non-normal, and actually I think this can be a very dangerous way of thinking. Norms are averages: within averages, by definition, you have diversity and it is this that we need to respect.

[KMC]

Mumble, I am generalising on purpose. I'm not talking about anyone specifically.

 

Do you not thing that the kids sitting on the outside of the "cliques" would rather be part of it? Do you think they want to be different to their classmates? Do you believe that they are happy being singled out as different? Do you think they dont want to make and keep friend?

 

From what you have said, you struggled with the fact that you knew you were different. So did I. I didnt want to be different.

 

The fact that it wasnt a well diagnosed condition when I was your age (that makes me feel old!) forced me to have to do things that made me feel uncomfortable. I actually didnt realise that other people didnt have the same sorts of problems doing things that I do. Sometimes I still dont realise it. Learning that I had AS helped me learn about myself and learn reactions to other people and helped me interact with people.

[Mumble]

Do you not thing that the kids sitting on the outside of the "cliques" would rather be part of it?

No - not necessarily - it depends on the individual.

 

Do you think they want to be different to their classmates?

Possibly yes, possibly no - depends on the individual and the context.

 

Do you believe that they are happy being singled out as different?

That seems quite argumentative, but it is an entirely different question to being outside of a 'clique'. When we award someone for doing well in sport/music/art/etc. are we not singling out difference? Most of these people are happy for the recognition, but it is again an individual response.

 

Do you think they dont want to make and keep friend?

Again I'm less happy with the tone - as you will know, something that is often quoted as a distinguishing feature of AS and HFA is the wanting or not wanting to have friends. Although I'm not entirely happy with this distinction, wanting friends and being able to do this are two very different things. And, again, it's an individual response - at times NTs want to be together, at times they want 'me time'. At times AS individuals want to be with other people (AS/NT/ND), at times they want/need individual 'chill out' time. Neither is right or wrong and no one should be judging others for the decisions they make, for such judgements are based on individual preferences.

 

From what you have said, you struggled with the fact that you knew you were different. So did I. I didnt want to be different.

Not not wanting to be different does not equate with wanting to be the same. I value many of my differences; it is these that make me successful in many aspects of what I do and will continue to do in the future. But I also have difficulties that cause me problems others don't face and of course I would like to address these. But, we are all a complex mix of strengths and weaknesses and it is these that we need to accept and address.

 

I have days when I'm happy with who I am; I have days when I'm not happy with who I am. I suspect this is the same for everyone, and I find it quite difficult to accept the distinctions being made here as AS/NT distinctions. You have your opinions about what AS means to you and I have mine. These may agree or conflict but neither can tell us the whole picture about what AS means to someone else. What they can do is help to illustrate that AS isn't a 'type' - AS individuals are as much individuals as anyone else, dealing with a messy, complex world that different people have different ways of responding to or interacting with.

[KMC]

Mumble, you are taking this way too personally. I am not being argumentative. I am asking questions for the purpose of discussion and giving my opinion. You are welcome to give your opinion as well, however as I said in my last post, I was generalising on purpose and I am not looking for an argument. There is no "tone" involved in my post.

 

I wonder if you and I have a similar issue. I am sometimes so aware of the fact that I miss undertones that I look for them in what people say and then see things that werent there in the first place. It makes the world an even more confusing place!

 

Believe me... I wasnt being argumentative.

[Bard]

KMC, this is not intending in any way to be an attack or taking things personally. It's just a question.

You see, my opinions are the same as Mumble on this subject, so I 'm just wondering how much actual experience of either ASDs or children you have, other than your own experience as an adult who prefers not to disclose their AS.

[Bard]

Sorry about the abrupt ending to the last post, I'm on a computer at work and a child fell down the stairs.

Blood and wailing all over the place, they're ok but the nose is a bit squashed.

 

My son doesn't want to be part of a clique at school, nor does he care about peer approval. He prefers to sit at the front of a class, so he can ignore the other children if he chooses to.What he wants is companionship.

He likes having someone to talk at, and to. Someone to ask questions of and listen to relevant information they have to offer.

He needs his companion to be non-judgemental, and accept what B has to offer as a friend, without trying to change him, or demand what he can't or won't give. He doesn't care how old, different or odd the companion is.

So if he was listing people he counted as friends, most of them would be adults or much older children.

Knowing that there was a reason why he was different was a relief to him as well as me, because suddenly different, seemingly unrelated things that were causing conflict and stress became easier to recognise and move towards resolving.

He already is different, pretending that this wasn't the case wouldn't help anyone.

And although you might not be aware of it, to some people, me included, some of your opinions appear rather dogmatic, solipsistic and argumentative. You appear to be putting all ASD children in the same set, presuming the same wishes and responses for them that, perhaps, you had for yourself as a child.

It's an interesting point of view, but I was wondering from what basis you were working.

[KMC]

Hi Bard,

 

I'm not taking anything personally.

 

How much experience with ASD's? Ummm... probably a fair bit. I work in a very technical side of IT so quite a few of the people I work with are more than likely on the spectrum without diagnosis. Before I knew what AS was, I couldnt recognise it and just thought the more "nerdy" people in my team were exactly that. In the last 7 or 8 years, I recognise stims etc. I have one guy who constantly waves his hands as if he has pins and needles, another one who has a tic with his right shoulder. One guy finds it very difficult to talk and get the words out, he'll stutter constantly until he gets to know you. As you are probably aware IT is re-nounded for being a haven for AS people. Note that these are only examples of behaviour, not the whole kit and kaboodle.

 

As far as kids are concerned, I try to stay away from them. However, having once been one, I can tell you how I felt at that age as can others on this forum. I am not saying that I am always correct but then my perspective is subjective, as is everyone elses on this forum when they are discussing anything other than proven fact.

 

The direction that this topic has taken seems to have hit a few nerves. I think we all need to remember that everyones view is valid, whether you agree with it or not.

 

 

KC

[Mumble]

I think we all need to remember that everyones view is valid, whether you agree with it or not.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not correct, else you are saying the racism, sexism and all types of discrimination are acceptable because it is someone's view. This came up on another thread before you joined this forum and I felt there was some quite nasty argument associated with it.

 

I do not take kindly to being told I am taking things personally, particularly not by someone who wants to keep AS hidden and as such makes acceptance far harder for others. I'm afraid that you have caught me at the end of a very difficult and very trying day. Having been told that I and the majority of other primary school teachers have caused and are causing severe emotional damage to all our pupils, I have no time for people who want to make sweeping generalisations about what we are all like, no matter who the we is. I use this forum for the wonderful support and advice that other members give me that I have no source of in the rest of my life. I find the members insighful, supportive and able to help me to see things with a bit more perspective, particularly where I have got upset and am unable to see a situation fully or clearly. Since my diagnosis, this forum has kept me going through some very dark times when I really didn't understand what was going on. I know that in many ways I have become dependent on the support offered here, but also, for me, being part of a community (even if it is a virtual one) is very important. I do not expect to have this threatened by anyone who wants to insult me. Please do not assume that you know me, or that you can then draw conclusions about who I am, because they will invariably be wrong.

[Bard]

KMC, on another thread, you wrote:

I fell into IT and was great technically but rubbish on the personal skills side. Nearly got fired from a job because of it. Enter the manager who taught me most of my people skills. She took the time to teach me how to respond to situations, how to appear to like change, how to understand why people reacted to me the way they did (I was very blunt). With her help I got promoted and it was very tough for quite a while. My people skills are more "cause and effect" rather than any real understanding of how people are feeling. By the same token, I certainly know how I feel. I dont deal with emotional people well or if I get emotional, I go into overload so I always try and stay logical.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, as is the man on the Clapham omnibus. You have AS, but choose not to disclose it, you observe the people you work with and make assumptions but presumably don't discuss ASD with them, and you prefer to keep away from children if possible. So that gives me a context in which I can place your opinions about little Johnny and parents who use ASD as an excuse for their child. I am not offended or upset, merely better informed about the basis for your statements.

[yoyo]

I think we all need to remember that everyones view is valid, whether you agree with it or not.

 

Forgive me for expressing my opinion here, but I think there has been some over-reaction to the above quote. In the context of this thread KMC is undoubtedly referring to her views on AS, many of which I share; there is nothing to suggest that she is condoning racism or any other form of discrimination.

 

Yoyo

[Canopus]

One thing that is worth remembering is that most parents want their children to be different or special in some way. As a child with AS though, all you really want is to fit in with the other kids. That is an immediate conflict.

 

Errr???

 

My own findings are that NT parents of children with AS roughly fit into two factions. The first accept their children for who they are, try to ensure that they capitalise on their strengths, and avoid situations that they have difficulty with or makes them unhappy. The second want their children to be NT and conventional, so are in favour of things that will alter their behaviour and attitude towards becoming 'normal'. The children with AS also roughly fit into two categories. The first just want to be themselves and do their own thing regardless of peer pressure or expectation of others. The second are unhappy with who they are and want to be NT and usually conventional as well.

[KMC]

Mumble and Bard

 

As I have already said, you are both welcome to your opinions. I have told you all that I chose not to disclose my AS and that is my perogative. I dont do it because it is not something that would be accepted:

a. in the industry I work in (IT in Investment Banking in the City)

b. for the position I hold (relatively senior)

 

If it's different where you work, then that's great for you. Unfortunately if I were to tell people it would pretty much end my career or I would suddenly find a very large glass ceiling. That, unfortunately is my reality.

 

In response to Mumble:

 

I have not discussed racism, sexism or any other form of discrimination and my comment "I think we all need to remember that everyones view is valid, whether you agree with it or not" was, as YoYo kindly pointed out, said in the context of this thread.

 

I am not threatening your support system, nor am I insulting you. I do not assume that I know you. My comment that I believed you had taken some of the things I had said personally was based on your response to a series of questions I asked. I have tried to point out that I was generalising on purpose because I want to try and have some "discussion."

 

Canopus

I'm wondering if there may be a 3rd faction - A group of parents who want their child to be NT and be "normal" but also want them to be different. Trying to think of how to explain what I mean... Umm.. they want the child to have friends and normal sorts of relationship but also want them to be different because the child may have some sort of obsession and as a result seem to have a lot of knowledge about one topic so that they seem brighter than the average child. Not sure I've explained myself well enough here. I'm not sure I have explained what I am thinking properly. Let me sleep on it and I'll see if I can explain it better tomorrow. or alternatively if you can understand what I am trying to say, let me know.

 

Folks,

By the time most people read this it will be a new day. I hope we can start the new day afresh without anyone thinking there are undertones to what I am saying or that I am being offence as that is not my intention. I do however think that debate and discussion, or even brain storming is not a bad idea and that is what I am trying to do. Your opinions are all valid in this context as you all have exposure to ASD in some form or another.

 

 

KC

[Canopus]

Unfortunately if I were to tell people it would pretty much end my career or I would suddenly find a very large glass ceiling. That, unfortunately is my reality.

 

Are you saying that AS is not tolerated in IT for financial services?

 

I'm wondering if there may be a 3rd faction - A group of parents who want their child to be NT and be "normal" but also want them to be different. Trying to think of how to explain what I mean... Umm.. they want the child to have friends and normal sorts of relationship but also want them to be different because the child may have some sort of obsession and as a result seem to have a lot of knowledge about one topic so that they seem brighter than the average child. Not sure I've explained myself well enough here. I'm not sure I have explained what I am thinking properly. Let me sleep on it and I'll see if I can explain it better tomorrow. or alternatively if you can understand what I am trying to say, let me know.

 

I think there is a 3rd faction similar to what you have described although I haven't found many parents who fit into it yet. They want their children to be NT but not conventional, and they value the skills and the knowledge they have. I have a sneaky feeling that many parents in the 3rd faction want their children to be NT because AS could hinder employment prospects in the future, as opposed to fitting in at school and making friends,

 

I was informed about a 13 year old genius who had 4 A Levels and tried to enter university but was refused because he was too young. However, he was NT and had no AS traits. He also did the things that typical 13 year old do and had many friends of that age with only average intelligence.

[KMC]

Hi Canopus

 

In retail banking, AS probably wouldnt be as big an issue. In Investment Banking where things are a lot more cut-throat, anything that has the potential to impair your judgement is seen as a negative. Although I dont believe AS impacts me negatively in my work anymore (since I discovered what it was and spent a lot of time developing the areas I was weak in), it doesnt mean that other people's perceptions wouldnt be altered. A technical judgement mistake in my role has the potential to lose �millions so trust in my judgement is very important. I have seen small mistakes cost around �25 million (this is an extreme example and quite rare).

 

I also have a second job which I have taken on temporarily as a favour for a friend while she tries to find an appropriate person to do the job fulltime. Without going into details of what it is or where it is, a mistake in this role could lead to huge negative publicity and would likely be in most major newspapers in this country.

 

In these sorts of roles, people need to have faith and belief in you. Saying that I have AS would not be seen as a positive and new opportunites would disapear as a result.

 

I'm still thinking about this 3rd faction thing. I think there is something there and you have gone some way to describing what I was thinking about last night but I think there is more to it. I've having serious trouble trying to get my thoughts together though. They will crystalise eventually :-) (hopefully)

 

Off to do some more work...

 

 

KC

[Canopus]

In retail banking, AS probably wouldnt be as big an issue. In Investment Banking where things are a lot more cut-throat, anything that has the potential to impair your judgement is seen as a negative.

 

I personally wouldn't say that investments and stockbroking are good careers for people with AS. Technically they are a form of gambling and suit people who have a particular type of 6th sense identifying the way businesses will react, as opposed to being suited to somebody who is very analytical.

 

I'm not too sure about the IT side of investments and stockbroking. Is it significantly different to any other industry?

[KMC]

Hi Canopus

 

IT is hugely important in Investments and stockbroking. Without it, no trading can take place as all trades are placed via computer to the exchange. Computers are also used for market evaluation and forcasts. A fraction of a second can make a dfference between placing a trade that makes lots of money or losing money. IT can give the business that advantage. Because of this it is very high pressure, can be immediate decisions, immediate fixes, knowing your stuff technically and from a development perspective, developing tools that will give the business the advantage.

 

The �25m issue I spoke about was a case where a change was made to a bit of software over night. This was a planned upgrade and should have gone without a hitch. Unfortunately lack of planning and a bad decision meant that the network slowed down so badly that the entire dealing room had to be shut down for half a day.

 

Prior to getting into banking 15 years ago, I worked for various other industries. Banking is without doubt more pressure, more tech knowledge required, more dynamic that nearly any other industry I have worked in.

 

 

KC

[curlywurly]

I'm new to this site....I believe my son has aspergers but is yet to recieve an official diagnosis. When I was surfing the net to see if I could put a name to my son's particular myriad of eccentricities, I took a quiz myself - the results of which were that I had all the hallmarks of an adult with this condition.

 

Should I look further into this, or just do my best to help my son?

 

PS. I also suffer from severe clinical depression - I don't know whether this should make a difference to me OR my son...

[Tally]

Hi CurlyWurly, and welcome to the forum.

 

Personally, I found it important to seek diagnosis for myself, because it helped to explain things for me. It's a personal decision, and adult diagnosis is not easy to come by, but I would definitely recommend you think more about this.

 

You may find that the difficulties you have encountered as a result of having AS traits have contributed to your depression, or might be hampering your treatment.

[pearl]

Wow I've just read through all of this with interest.

 

I voted as a parent of a child (well nearly 18 now) with AS, but mr pearl is on the spectrum too.

 

Like others have said, I like the diversity & positive attitude on here. I've been on other forums looking for somewhere for JP to join (we dont really want to go on the same one, & I got here first!) but as others have said they can be quite scary places. I'd welcome any recommendations.

 

One of the things I've found most rewarding has been getting to know some of the adult aspies on here - I've learned a lot. But some I get on with better than others, just like some NT folk I get on with better than others.

 

As for parents motives - I love JP just the way he is. When first dx'd I'd have given anything to have made it disappear, just wanted life to be easy for him, but now I could not imagine him any other way, its part of his warp & weft. I have fought for the help he needed & he is doing well & fulfilling his potential. If that has at times made him stand out from the other children, well I'm sorry but you have to follow your instinct & he'd have fallen through the cracks without extra help.

 

KMC, I'm sorry you dont feel able to disclose in your professional life - I'm not judging you, its just that our children so need positive role models to look up to. One of my relatives who works in the theatre knows a well-known actor who has AS but also refuses to disclose for the same reason. That makes me very sad but I can understand the reasoning.

 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, we are all in this together. We shouldnt be criticising each other. Some of the comments made about parents motives on this thread have been quite upsetting, more what you'd expect to find "out there" rather than in this sanctuary.