Dreaded tables...........

[oxgirl]

Once more we're trying to tackle the dreaded times tables, as Jay still doesn't know them and it's really holding him back now. We've tried so many times to get them to stick in his head but he's so difficult to work with that he jeapardizes any efforts and makes himself fail. He's got such a block about them now, he just constantly says he's 'rubbish' at maths, etc., but he isn't really, he has the potential to be really good at it, it's just not mastering the tables that's holding him back.

 

Just wondered if anyone had any tips on how to get them into his head. We've tried tapes, etc. but they just wash over him and don't go in. He couldn't chant them at school with the other children when he was younger because it was too fast for him and he couldn't get the rhythm so he missed out on this stage. Can anyone recommend any good games or something that might help??

 

~ Mel ~

[brooke]

Hi Mel

Ive just bought my son a huge poster of the times table from toys*us to stick on his wall. He has more of a picture memory so i thought that would help him even if he isnt really practicing them as of yet, having them there all the time i think will put them in his memory.

I learnt the alphbet this way my mam had a huge poster on the wall downstairs and it just seemed to sink in. Hope this helps.

[llisa32]

Hi Mel, J's been having the same trouble - his dad created something on excel that you use on the PC - I'll mail it to you

if you'd like to see it

 

Basically all the tables going down in a column - it goes green if you're right, red if you're not, and you can leave it come back to as often as you like - so it never actually feels like 'wrong' if you know what I mean.

 

Pm me if you'd like it <'>

[oxgirl]

Thanks Brooke and Lisa,

Jay has had a big tables poster on his wall for a couple of years now and he just totally ignores it. In fact, today I spent ages chopping it all up into individual sums so he can muddle them up and put them back in the right order again. Trouble is his attitude really, he's so awkward and obstructive and negative that it's getting him to cooperate that's the real hurdle we have to get over.

Thanks for the offer of the spreadsheet Lisa, sounds interesting, I'll have a think about if I think he could be patient enough for that.

 

~ Mel ~

[baddad]

There's a game called (I think) 'times table challenge' that uses a cassette/cd and bingo style boards, and the kid has to try to find the answer to a particular sum before the 'clock' runs out...

Having said that, I bought it for Ben (along with all the other ideas) and he still struggles...

 

Many people with AS seem to find their own methods of doing sums/tables (processes like doubling/trebling and then taking away the 'odd' sort of mental long multiplication) and while they might never be quite as fast as the 'ready recall' NT's can use it works quite well for them... Ben seems to be starting to show signs of working in this way, and is better at 'general' maths than many of the kids in his mainstream class...

 

L&P

 

BD

[Flora]

Mel

 

Bill's tutor is going to start using a system for helping him retain the times tables. She did say the name but I forgot it. As Bill is the same age as J it would probably be ideal; I will ask her the name of the system when she comes on Friday.

 

I wonder if this is a common problem? Every summer for about 4 years we spent learning tables. I've tried songs, games, posters, all sorts. He learns them then forgets them!

 

Flora

[Stella63]

Hi

 

Have to confess, I never mastered my tables! My mum was convinced it was because in the 1970's they stopped teaching them rote fashion and she used to complain like mad to my school. She tried to make me learn them at home but I just refused as most stroppy kids do!

 

AJ is just like me but OJ seemed to work out his own method which I can't get my head around at all. I think some of us do have a blindness where maths is concerned, maybe dyscalculia, inspite of my dad being a mathematical genius.

 

What gets me is that the schools still aren't teaching them properly. My kids used to be given their tables to learn as homework and this was after the Numeracy Hour was initiated - the school used to say there wasn't time in the curriculum to teach in lessons and yet I know now that it is one of the most important things to know in life, forget algebrae and nth degrees, if I knew my tables it would make a big difference.

 

Sorry, bit of a rant there!!!

 

Stella x

[David Matthew Baker]

Number Shark is used in a few schools as a general tool for teaching children maths skills. It seems fairly good but is by no means cheap. Personally have more experience of word shark though. Some of the reward games could do with some work though. Some of them were just frustrating (and that was for me when I was learning my way round the programme).

 

http://www.wordshark.co.uk/numbershark-overview.html

 

Theres probably a lot of free stuff up on the web. I'll try and remember to ask my dad. He used to help in a primary and had found quite a few things to help there.

[Mumble]

*splosh splosh*

 

What gets me is that the schools still aren't teaching them properly. My kids used to be given their tables to learn as homework and this was after the Numeracy Hour was initiated - the school used to say there wasn't time in the curriculum to teach in lessons and yet I know now that it is one of the most important things to know in life, forget algebrae and nth degrees, if I knew my tables it would make a big difference.

Standing up for teachers here. There is very little time in the curriculum - class teachers have to cover 11 subjects a week and that's before you get onto any of the admin and 'parenting' roles. But back to tables - rote doesn't work for most pupils. Pupils learning by rote are learing their tables as if they were a poem. They need the understanding to go with this. And they need to know how to find an unknown table without having to start at the beginning of a table. Learning by rote may lead to high tables test marks, particularly if the tables test involves the table in order. It doesn't help pupils see the actually mathematics behind them or help them link this to other work they have done, strengthen their understanding and move forwards.

 

Many people with AS seem to find their own methods of doing sums/tables (processes like doubling/trebling and then taking away the 'odd' sort of mental long multiplication) and while they might never be quite as fast as the 'ready recall' NT's can use it works quite well for them... Ben seems to be starting to show signs of working in this way, and is better at 'general' maths than many of the kids in his mainstream class...

I'm not surprised at all. By finding an own way, he is exploring what mathematics can and can't do and eveloping a deeper appreciation for himself. Understanding how these methods work and being able to generalise from them will give a much firmer foundation than learning without meaning.

 

But, tables are hard. I actually think far too much empahsis is put on them - they appear to be an easy way to 'measure' the maths a child can do, but I don't believe they actually test much more than memory. Pupils need to be able to apply their knowledge and understand the meaning of the application. This is hard.

[krystaltps]

I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about the tables. Many children will simply never be able to have that kind of recall. It is unrealistic to assume that everyone will be able to remember them all.

I think it's far better with certain children to teach them strategies to help them calculate multiplications quickly - along the lines of counting up or continuous addition and using easy tables like the 2 and 5 to serve as a base when counting up or adding.

C will never have instant recall of his multiplication number facts, but he's practiced continuous addition so often that he is now only a couple of seconds slower than children who do have instant recall. I've been helping some pupils in S3 (14 year-olds) who still don't know their tables and using this method - the class teacher has seen a fantastic improvement in their speed, accuracy and mental maths in general. BUT, as Mumble says, this is only really possible once the child has an adequate understanding of the process of multiplication.

 

One of my colleagues, who works a lot with dyslexic children recently imported a fantastic resource from the States. Can't remember what it's called, but it does seem to be helping. It works using mnemonics and has little rhyming stories for all the tables, for example the 4X table has 10 very short rhyming stories that revolve around a magical door; once the children are familiar with the stories, they start to learn the rhyming facts - tree door elf is 3 fours are twelve, and because they have an internalised visual picture of that part of the story - the link is almost instantaneous and for some reason the multiplication facts sink in really quickly. It does require one to one teaching on a daily basis though.

I'm probably not explaining properly as I've never used it, but if you would like me try to get a link to the site let me know.

Edited January 9, 2008 by krystaltps

[Bard]

* splosh splosh* Could be our new call sign Mumble!

 

In school, Y2 onwards, we all practice tables a couple of times a week, and have a test.

 

What sort of learner is he, other than reluctant? visual kinesthetic?

Things I use in class. 12 pieces of card, calculation on one side, answer on the other, you can either choose a calculation, say the answer and turn over the card to see if you are right, or say the calculation that matches the answer and check. get it right, keep the card. That way,, the ones left are the ones you don't know.

Online Primary games of various sorts, aim for KS2.

Clock with one hand for the 5x, hand points to 8, 8x5=40, or you can count round.

Joints of your fingers for 3x, finger trick for 9x, double and double again for 2, 4, 8.

9x, digits add up to 9, ascending and descending pattern.

Multiplication bingo, with paper grid with the answers, and writing the calculations on the board, so you don't have to worry if you didn't hear the question. OK, hard to play alone!

Grids and arrays with pegs and pegboards, or play dough cakes with cubes on them, 6 cubes, 6 cakes..

Learning square numbers as a sequence, draw them so you understand why they're square.

And we use tapes, actions, dance moves etc as well.

I didn't learn my tables properly until I stopped believing I was bad at maths, and started to think of other ways of teaching and learning the subject.

[Canopus]

Is there a reason why Jay needs to learn times tables? My findings are that they are a primary school subject that isn't particularly useful for KS4 maths and the GCSE exam.

[oxgirl]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm gonna start working with him ten minutes every day, but I can't see him cooperating really, but I have to give it another try.

The TA told me yesterday that tables are the basic key to all maths. She said they were working out the surface area of things yesterday and, of course, he was stumbling over the basic multiplications and having to go through each one painstakingly adding each one until he got there, painfully slow. It's just a confidence thing with him, I think, he believes he's rubbish so he doesn't want to try because he knows he'll fail.

 

~ Mel ~

[Mumble]

She said they were working out the surface area of things yesterday and, of course, he was stumbling over the basic multiplications and having to go through each one painstakingly adding each one until he got there, painfully slow.

If the lesson objective is to acurately find the area of given shapes, then that is what he should be assessed on. Does he know how to do this and why and what area 'means'? He could use a calculator to support the multiplication bit here - after all, that would be more sensible in real world situations.

[Frangipani]

Nothing better than rote learning - get them to write them over and over till they get it right then move on to the next set starting with 1x tables - both my kids went to maths power coaching thats how they did it a complete waste of money but it works.!

 

Fxx

Edited January 10, 2008 by Frangipani

[Kathryn]

This is a really interesting thread for me too, as both my children have always struggled with tables and my 10 year old is very like your son, oxgirl - he lacks confidence and doesn't have the motivation to learn tables as he finds maths boring - words are more his thing.

 

We've tried to work on this at home, but he soon gets bored and frustrated, and I don't want to use up parental "quality" time on this. We've tried songs, websites and games and nothing has really helped. He just doesn't seem to see the patterns and connections which make things easier - eg understanding that 6x4 is the same as 4x6 and both are part of the 6x and 4x tables.

 

The onus seems to be on parents to sort this one out, but I'm not a good teacher when it comes to my own children and I can't teach maths. I know his maths would improve if he could just master his tables. I've puzzled over why he cant just learn them by rote when he can spell accurately, memorise songs, poems and scripts effortlessly, but having read Mumble's earlier post I can understand why. language has meaning for him, whereas his understanding of the mathematical principles underlying multiplication is a bit hazy.

 

K x

[krystaltps]

If the lesson objective is to acurately find the area of given shapes, then that is what he should be assessed on. Does he know how to do this and why and what area 'means'? He could use a calculator to support the multiplication bit here - after all, that would be more sensible in real world situations.

 

Mumble is exactly right. While I can see the point in him trying to speed up his calculations, it is silly to let this get in the way of something that is not the lesson objective. Unless I'm specifically teaching multiplication, I always give children access to table squares. Tackling too many issues in the one lesson will only lead to confusion and frustration.

[oxgirl]

If the lesson objective is to acurately find the area of given shapes, then that is what he should be assessed on. Does he know how to do this and why and what area 'means'? He could use a calculator to support the multiplication bit here - after all, that would be more sensible in real world situations.

 

 

Yes, he does understand the mathematical principals and the ins and outs and why the answers are what they are, he just can't memorize the answers, or else he panics and this blocks his thinking. If he's doing long multiplication, say 54x63 and he doesn't even know what 6x4 is then it's a total nonstarter for him. The teacher isn't helping at all, they just expect him to know his tables but, as he doesn't, he's really struggling. They're not giving him any slack by allowing him to use a calculator or doing anything to help him learn his tables, they're just saying can I do it! But when he's had a long day at school and is tired and grumpy he just can't be bothered with it and can't take it in.

 

~ Mel ~

[justamum]

The teacher isn't helping at all, they just expect him to know his tables but

 

That's the problem, if they don't understand how the answer figure is achieved how are they expects to memorise the answer?

 

The goal is set to high for him....you need to have a meeting and mention this FIRMLY

 

incidentally I don't know my tables fully, never did but I always end up in the right answer by other means, except when under pressure...teachers doing many years ago with the pressure to 'perform on demand'.

[madme]

My son also has dyscalulia.. Have a look at the books by Steve Chinn written mainly for dyslexics. I have to say that at age 11 my son started secondary 2-3 years behind in maths despite a v high IQ. What has worked in his specialist independent placement is 1-1 teaching twice per week. His specialist teacher should be a saint. She has achievd what I had tried to achieve for so many years. My son is still dyscalculic, but he is on the way to learning what he needs for his GCSEs and independent living. Without her help he would now be years behind.