oxgirl Report post Posted January 25, 2008 Jay's ASD unit are going on a residential trip to a place in Wales, doing all sorts of outdoorsy things, hiking, riding, climbing, sleeping in dorms, doing their own cooking, etc. and they're putting a lot of pressure on me to persuade Jay to go. The thing is I know there are a lot of things that he couldn't cope with or would hate. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a fantastic experience for him if he could go and if he did love it, but he hasn't got the confidence to go and doesn't want to and they want me to put pressure on him to agree to go. They seem to think that it's me holding him back and not letting him go and that I'm over-fussing him and being over-protective, but that's not it at all. They said they're going to 'work on him' at school about it! One major issue is with food. If it's not done totally how he's used to he just won't eat. Last year we left him with Grandma and Grandad for five days and all he ate was cake and Kit kats. They think it's as simple as me telling them what he likes, but if they don't cut it right or don't cook it exactly correctly then he won't eat it and they just don't seem to accept this! They think they know best because in the past others have enjoyed it so he naturally will as well. They're convinced that 'once he gets there' he'll have a lovely time, but I know he won't, he'll hate a lot of it and want to come home. Why are they making me feel like it's all my fault and that I'm somehow holding him back! ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mumble Report post Posted January 25, 2008 And this is an ASD unit that doesn't 'get' it - mad!!! I don't know if it's possible, but could you arrange to take J there for a day whilst they're there so he can do a few of the activities? Or if you're feelin' very brave volunteer to go along as a helper/chef!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 25, 2008 I would do Mumble, but it's so far, it's over three hours away! If it was nearer, I'd go and stay in a B&B nearby and bring him home if he wanted to come, but I don't think I could cope with going all that way on my own without DH to navigate. Plus, the school already have me down as a 'fusser' and they don't want parents along (especially me, no doubt). They said they could send him home early if he wanted to come home, but he's terrified, to be honest, and it's such a long way to go just to turn round and come back again the next day. I dunno what to do really. I can't force him to go and drag him bodily onto the mini-bus, I just wish I didn't feel like the school were blaming me for his lack of confidence. There's no-one who encourages that child more than me and they have me down as such a negative person. The trouble is, I'm negative about THEM and not my son, if only they could see that they'd stop blaming me for his problems. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mumble_rocks Report post Posted January 25, 2008 Thats a hard one! As it was Outdoor Education through Scouts that changed me and gave me the confidence to talk! Very litterally! Now I am at college studying Outdoor Education to become an instuctor specialising in special needs. So I know first hand how this week away could help your son! But then again, food will be an issue if they are cooking for themselves it may be entertaining, at college residentails we have to cook on tragia's this limits the food you can cook! Also the food your son like will proberly not be to everyones liking and vice verser. How would you and the school feel if he was to help the cook? and then he could have a bit more of a say? Sorry, if thats no help! What about seeing if you could get the list of food that they will be eating and then he is prepared for what he is to eat? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 25, 2008 At the moment, mumble_rocks, he's adamant that he's not going, he doesn't even want to discuss it because he feels like I'm trying to persuade him. I would love it if he could go, it WOULD be brilliant for him and help increase his confidence, but I know there would be loads of things he'd really find difficult to cope with. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bard Report post Posted January 25, 2008 At the moment, mumble_rocks, he's adamant that he's not going, he doesn't even want to discuss it because he feels like I'm trying to persuade him. I would love it if he could go, it WOULD be brilliant for him and help increase his confidence, but I know there would be loads of things he'd really find difficult to cope with. ~ Mel ~ Maybe he's not ready yet, but he will be in the future if he's allowed to proceed at his own pace with you shoving firmly from the back every now and then. B went on his Y6 residential because the teacher in charge was a personal friend and another friend went as a TA but promised she'd watch out for him 24/7. I slept in 30 minute bursts for the whole week and was prepared at a moments notice to be phoned and asked to come. He enjoyed parts of it, didn't like other bits and hated one or two. I didn't feel that it was the opportunity of a life time, or that I'd be depriving him if he didn't go. He did want to go, with strong reservations. His Secondary keeps wanting me to let him go abroad on an exchange trip. I said no, never. They said oh...ok...but... I said 'I'm not getting him a passport' That's one thing I do know that he'd not manage at all, first member of the family to be deported from Europe. You know him so much better than the school does. You're not stifling him, you're supporting him Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elun1 Report post Posted January 25, 2008 <'> Hi Mel. That's a really tricky one. If it was O when he's older I think when all's said and done I'd try and trust my gut instinct. Do you think he's ready? Do you really think he'll get lots out of it? Do you work/and or have other kids? If not, could you maybe go and stay near so you could be there quickly if you were needed? An autism unit should be more clued up but, like you say, they have to really understand about the eating issue. O is the same, he has a limited diet but even that vanishes if things are bigger than bite sized and he just won't eat a thing. Will the unit staff really listen and help if you write down everything he needs and how he has to have it? O's would do it but sometimes I think we're exceptionally lucky with his unit. If you really do think overall the experience would be negative then you're probably right - you know him better than the staff Elun xxx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
witsend Report post Posted January 25, 2008 Hi Mel - don't beat yourself up about this it isn't YOU who's stopping him from going it's him who doesn't want to go and even if everyone else agrees it would be great for him etc etc if he doesn't think so then that's that really. You can't drag him there and the more you go on about it the more he may stress about it. My son has been on a few outdoor residential trips in the past and (to my surprise) loved them, but it was him who wanted to go if he hadn't then I wouldn't have made him. Next month his school are going ski-ing in France and he doesn't want to go 'cos he scared of flying, I did try and persuade him a bit at first becasue all the other kids are going and I think the school were a bit fed up he wasn't joining in but I soon realised it was wrong to try and force him into a situation he wasn't comfortable with, I thought he may regret his desicion when it got nearer the time but he hasn't one bit. Jays got years ahead of him to do this sort of stuff and do it he will if and when the time is right. Let him know it's OK if he doesn't want to go and tell the school you have made a desicion so they can stop "working on him" now! You never know when the pressures off he may change his mind but if not then there will always be a next time. Take care - Luv Witsend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 26, 2008 Thanks guys, for the support. <'> I honestly don't think he's ready to take such an enormous step, tbh, and I'm fed up with the unit telling me they know different. There's certainly no way I can force him to go, even if I thought he'd be fine when he got there, which I don't. I guess they're just going to have to think what they like about me, if they want to believe that I'm babying him by not 'allowing' him to progress then there's not much I can do about it, I suppose. It makes me so frustrated though, when I know I'm working so hard to help him with his independence. They don't see all the hard work and progress he's made, all they see is that I've 'failed' to get him to achieve this. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus Report post Posted January 30, 2008 I had the opposite experience at secondary school. I really wanted to go on a residential trip but the school wasn't very keen on me going. Their explanation was that my behaviour wasn't very good and a high proportion of activities were physical and unsuitable for somebody with my level of co-ordination. Eventually my parents managed to convince the school to let me attend and almost everything worked out fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 30, 2008 I had the opposite experience at secondary school. I really wanted to go on a residential trip but the school wasn't very keen on me going. Their explanation was that my behaviour wasn't very good and a high proportion of activities were physical and unsuitable for somebody with my level of co-ordination. Eventually my parents managed to convince the school to let me attend and almost everything worked out fine. It's really good that you were adventurous enough to want to go and give it a go and that you, therefore, made it work out well. I wish Jay had some drive and motivation to do things. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus Report post Posted January 30, 2008 It's really good that you were adventurous enough to want to go and give it a go and that you, therefore, made it work out well. I wish Jay had some drive and motivation to do things. ~ Mel ~ It was my own decision to go rather than peer pressure. I demanded details of every activity of every minute of the trip to identify things that might cause problems. The school provided me with a half inch thick handbook about the trip and arranged a meeting for me and my parents to discuss things with the organisers. I participated in every activity with the exception of the mountain bike riding course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 30, 2008 It was my own decision to go rather than peer pressure. I demanded details of every activity of every minute of the trip to identify things that might cause problems. The school provided me with a half inch thick handbook about the trip and arranged a meeting for me and my parents to discuss things with the organisers. I participated in every activity with the exception of the mountain bike riding course. That's really great and it sounds like the school really bent over backwards to help. That's the point, though, isn't it, you have to WANT to do it, no-one can persuade you into doing it and it's the same with Jay. However much they try and get him to agree to go he just doesn't want it himself. Oh well. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kinda Report post Posted January 30, 2008 oxgirl I think this trip is also about you and what you are comfortable with, if your son does not want to go and you have serious concerns then this should be sufficient because at the end of the day you have his best interests at heart and it will be you that has to pick up the pieces afterwards. You also have to maintain relationships with the unit so why don't have a meeting with them and state your concerns and unless they provide clear answers and explain what measures they are prepared to take to allay your fears then you have your answer. Just placating you is not sufficient but need to know what measures they will take to help your son if he has difficulties, food, joining in, sleep, being upset etc. This will prevent you being acussed of preventing him and will allow them to understand where you are coming from. At the end of the day its your call and its must be accepted by all that you have your sons best interest at heart period, no debate on that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 30, 2008 Thanks Kinda, The Unit are putting it all on me really and are not giving me specific measures they would take in situations, they think that reasuring me that 'he'll be fine when he gets there' is enough, but, of course it is not. I just wish they would take my concerns seriously really rather than just brushing them off as if I'm fussing unnecessarily about nothing. I tried to talk to them about the issues with food. I just used the example of pizza as a way of trying to explain that it isn't a simple matter of saying he likes pizza, it has to be a certain kind and cut in a certain way and cooked to the correct colour, etc. Their solution was, can't I get him to cook his pizza at home so that he knows how he likes it. Well, simple enough, you would have thought, but there are many, many foods that I can get him to eat if I cook them specifically and serve them in certain ways that I know no-one else can get him to eat and it's just not as simple as they're making out. But I feel like if I try to explain it to them they think I'm just making excuses or worrying about nothing. All his life people have said to me, oh, he'll eat when he's hungry enough and it just isn't true, he just won't. He'll go without, for the whole week if necessary, rather than eat food that is not 'correctly' displayed for him and it's as simple as that. We've worked so hard with him over the years to get him to the point where he's eating a much wider range and is a lot more flexible than he was and eats a pretty varied and healthy, albeit limited, diet. They don't see that though, of course, all they see is, apparently, me giving in to his fads and making him worse. They should have seen him 9/10 years ago, if only they could see the progress we've made with him. They always make me feel like they're criticizing me and it's so unjustified and unfair. If only they knew what work we'd put in. I've got to the point where I can't talk to them anymore. Oh blimey, sorry, Kinda, went off on one a bit there didn't I!! ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted January 30, 2008 Hi mel - another perspective - This is an ASD Unit - hopefully they are not niave enough to believe that this will 'work out' just because they want it to, and accept that you could be right and that it will all go pear shaped... If the place is 3 hrs away, that's a 90 minute drive to meet in the middle if things do go wrong - are they willing to agree to make that trip if necessary, and are you? If so, it has the potential to open up all sorts of horizons for your son, even if it does mean taking him out of his comfort zone. Our children can be very fearful of new experiences and breaks in routines, but they are also capable of making huge quantum leaps and almost taking them in their stride when they finally overcome those fears. My own son would not have achieved half of what he has without some fairly hefty 'pushing' at some points, but on looking backward at those things he would be the first to thank me for it, because that has opened up all sorts of other opportunities for him. (hopefully he'll be getting on a plane to madrid this june on a school trip... he's always previously said he wouldn't fly, but everything's crossed. If he DOESN'T I'm �200 out of pocket and making a two hour round trip to the airport and back for the privilege... If he DOES do it, that's worth a kings ransom and any amount of inconvenience - so the gamble is a no brainer as far as i'm concerned ) It's a very difficult call, and certainly if he is 100% adament he does not want to go he should not be forced, but perhaps if you work with the school to try and encourage him, rather than reinforcing his fears, maybe you can turn that '100% adament' into him thinking he might be able to do it. From there, the reassurance that he doesn't have to stay if he hates it (90 minutes is all it takes to get him back to you) could be enough to sway him... Food thing - I'm not underestimating for one minute how difficult food issues can be... What I can say, from first hand experience, is that our kids can absolutely confound us with the changes they CAN deal with when circumstances demand it. And I've seen that with food/speech/behaviour/routines - just about every aspect of their lives - on many occassions... Hope that's helpful, L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kinda Report post Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) Hi Oxgirl Here is a bit more on an alternative view which may help you negotiate with them. I think you have the issues you need to take to them in your last posting. Tell them about how much work and effort it has taken for you to achieve results with your son and your concerns regarding the potential to wreck this good work. I would also tell them that you feel their reaction to you is exerting pressure on you to comply with their wishes and this is unfair and wrong of them (if you are struggling you could explain to them that you consider their behaviour to you as bullying and this should get them to back off). Explain that you would love to send your son off without a care in the world but that can't happen and at the end of the day we (the unit and you) both want the same for your son but have differing views on how it can be achieved (that is an independant happy child). I would also say to them they should respect your wishes and help you not add additional stress to what is already a stessful life caring for your child 24/7. Hang in there and put the pressure back on them and off yourself, be confident that you are entitled to your view and they must respect your wishes as your son is ultimately your responsibility and not theirs. Be both concilatory and determined during the meeting to let them know what issues are not for negotiation and those that can be conceded. Gosh gone off on one a bit - sorry. Edited January 31, 2008 by Kinda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 31, 2008 perhaps if you work with the school to try and encourage him, rather than reinforcing his fears, maybe you can turn that '100% adament' into him thinking he might be able to do it. From there, the reassurance that he doesn't have to stay if he hates it (90 minutes is all it takes to get him back to you) could be enough to sway him... Thank you bd. Just to make one thing clear, I am ABSOLUTELY IN NO WAY reinforcing his fears! Isn't that what I've been complaining that the school feel I am doing and now you have said it also. I am expressing my concerns and fears HERE on this forum and in absolutely no way to HIM. I am very insulted and am shaking. I have done all I can to encourage him and reassure him, why do people assume that I have not. He is adamant that he does not want to go. Re. the food issue. I think it's easy for people to say, 'they can do this, they can achieve that', but I know my child. When I went away with my husband for five days and left him with his grandparents he ate cake and KitKats for five days and nothing else! I have said that I think it COULD be a really good experience and confidence building for him but I cannot drag him onto the coach screaming. I appreciate your input, but I am now very upset. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 31, 2008 Thanks very much, Kinda, appreciate your input. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lya of the Nox Report post Posted January 31, 2008 oh mel we know you are not reinforcing his fears <'> >< we know many of the things that may befall our kids, and try and avoid them, whether kids asd or not we are protecting them. and we are allowed to do so BD does have a valid point, and i have to say, meggz had a great time when away, it was hell for me, but every big step for our kids is, see my post on my son sam thinking of you x Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus Report post Posted January 31, 2008 That's really great and it sounds like the school really bent over backwards to help. That's the point, though, isn't it, you have to WANT to do it, no-one can persuade you into doing it and it's the same with Jay. However much they try and get him to agree to go he just doesn't want it himself. Oh well. ~ Mel ~ The school was very helpful, unlike my primary school where my teacher got very uptight when my parents requested more information about a residential trip. I was very nervous about that trip and really didn't want to go but in the end it worked out very well. Food was an issue and my teacher didn't even ask the kids about any special requirements because the teacher held a "get what you are given and be grateful" attitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) Thank you Lya and Canopus. <'> BD, I'm so furious, I just had to come back and say more. It's brilliant that your lad is able to go on a foreign trip, I hope he has a wonderful time. Do you think that I don't want that for my child too? Isn't that what we all want. Are you suggesting that because you and your lad have achieved it then it's possible for us all to achieve it if only we just try hard enough and if we don't achieve it then it's just proof of our failure to encourage our children enough or do enough for them. Don't you dare suggest that I haven't encouraged him or that I'm reinforcing his fears. Don't you dare. Now I'm going to go away and try and calm down. ~ Mel ~ Edited January 31, 2008 by oxgirl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flora Report post Posted January 31, 2008 I can see where the difficulty is here. I understand where both Mel and baddad are coming from. Having two boys on the spectrum, I know the difference between a child who has an irrational fear, and a child who has a rational fear. For years I tried to make Bill see things from a different perspective; hours of my time, as well as other people's time (OT through CBT) were spent trying to help him rethink his perspective and realise that there is nothing to fear. We were all at a loss as to why this didn't work; well now we know it's because he has quite severe sensory integration dysfunction, thereby while to others his fears appear irrational, he is in fact having a rational response because of the very real difficulties which were and are causing his anxiety, and no amount of 'thinking or talking' can change that, he needs OT to address the difficulties. With Ben it's a completely different ball game; by encouraging him to challenge his perspective he has grown from strength to strength and functions fantastically in all the settings that his brother can't handle; but that's because his fears were a genuinely irrational response and when challenged he could see that too. I hope this draws attention to the fact that what works for one person, and just as importantly, what is appropriate for one person, is not necessarily going to work or be appropriate for another. Age too plays a part in all of this. Like Bill, Mel's J is 14, right in the midst of all those havoc playing hormones. When a 14 year old digs their heels in and refuses to do something, it is one hell of a job trying to convince them otherwise! In fact, just trying to get them to see a different perspective can cause trouble in itself (for NT and ASD kids). Add to that the additional 'rational fear' response and you have a double wammy. Hope this helps and I haven't made it worse Flora Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 31, 2008 Thanks Flora. I'm so upset now, though, I need to go and have a good cry and stuff myself with chocolate. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kinda Report post Posted January 31, 2008 oxgirl There isn't a right and wrong answer to this one just a solution that is right for you...period! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted January 31, 2008 Ho oxgirl - I'm sorry I offended you. I think you took a (badly worded, possibly(?)) point wrongly/out of context... In addition to the section you found offensive I also said in the same paragraph: It's a very difficult call, and certainly if he is 100% adament he does not want to go he should not be forced, and I stressed that in tandem with the school you might be able to persuade him, and that you could take steps to minimise the effects if it did go wrong by meeting the school halfway between home and the campsite... I also said on the subject of food that I was not underestimating the difficulties but that our children can surprise us by making huge leaps when circumstances demand. I'm sure many parents have experienced this in all sorts of areas too, and that I'm not alone in this(?)... I accept 'reinforcing' was the wrong choice of word, but how you read that as me suggesting that your sons problems were fictional or of your making I really can't see... Obviously, i have no idea what dialogue you've had with the school or how that dialogue has been interpreted by your son, but your post did suggest that you and the school were at loggerheads - and that dialogue at this point centered on them trying to force the issue upon you, with you strongly resisting that. Even if that isn't directly expressed to your son the tension involved would likely be evident to him and that would act as a reinforcer, because the one thing he won't be seeing is all parties sitting down trying to find a 'workable' solution... Anyway, as I said, sorry. If you look at the rest of my post I hope you can see I was trying to offer suggestions/observations that could help - not 'judgements'. L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hev Report post Posted January 31, 2008 oh mel dont be upset love,i hate people being sad <'> <'> hopefully when you read baddads post you will feel better <'> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clare63 Report post Posted January 31, 2008 ~Mel, Your a fantastic Mum and I know how hard you work with J to support him and encourage independance. Thinking of you <'> <'> <'> Clare x x x Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) BD, the only sentence I had an issue with was this one: "but perhaps if you work with the school to try and encourage him, rather than reinforcing his fears". I think it was unnecessary for you to say that and the fact that you said other things as well does not take away the fact that you DID say it. I HAVE encouraged him and I am NOT reinforcing his fears and I really resented you implying different. The emails and telephone conversations I have exchanged with school about the trip have not been witnessed by Jay. I am not standing in the doorway of school ranting with the teachers whilst he looks on. I have had conversations out of his earshot and he is totally unaware of what has been said. I have backed up the schools point of view and talked to Jay in very positive terms about the benefits of the trip and he still hates the idea. The fact the people seem to automatically think that he doesn't want to go because I am not trying hard enough to persuade him really grates on me and is totally incorrect and unfounded. Thank you for your suggestions though. ~ Mel ~ Edited January 31, 2008 by oxgirl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 31, 2008 Cheers Clare, cheers Hev. <'> <'> I am very tired and I have a rotten headache. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hev Report post Posted January 31, 2008 the headache is due to all the chocolate you ate mel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted January 31, 2008 the headache is due to all the chocolate you ate mel I didn't have any in the end, haven't got any in the house and couldn't be bothered to go to the shop! Had to make do with Bourbon bics in the end. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted January 31, 2008 Mel, just wanted to send some <'> <'> Bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted February 1, 2008 Thanks bid. <'> <'> ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eva Report post Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Mel, I just want to send you some of these <'> <'> <'> . What an awful position to be in, I really feel for you. Take care, Eva Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flora Report post Posted February 1, 2008 Hope you're alright today mel.... BTW... bourbon biscuits are absolutely no substitute for chocolate Flozza XX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BusyLizzie100 Report post Posted February 1, 2008 Mel, <'> >< <'> Hope you manage to sort this out for the best. Big hugs, Lizzie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted February 1, 2008 Thanks guys, I'm okay today. I do know really that they mean well for him and that I'm being over-sensitive. Today the Head came out and told me how he'd love to have him on the trip, makes me feel like they can't wait to get him away from my clutches and really get to work on him away from my negative influence! I do know that it's not meant that way, but that's how it makes me feel. Or am I just being paranoid!! And Flora, you need at least six Bourbons to compensate for lack of Twirl! ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flora Report post Posted February 1, 2008 And Flora, you need at least six Bourbons to compensate for lack of Twirl! ~ Mel ~ I have a 'thing' about bourbons. I remember when I was little and used to go to my great aunt's, who had my great granddad living with her. She always gave him a plate of bourbons with his cuppa and nobody else was allowed to touch them because she was worried his hands weren't clean so guests had biccies from a different plate. I used to call them 'old men's biscuits', and it kind of stuck... I can't help thinking of bourbons as old men's biscuits! Same as jelly babies, I remember my other granddad telling me the black one's were hot (presumably because he wanted to eat them himself ) and I won't eat them now because I think they are going to taste of pepper... even though I know they don't!!! I'm sure you're feeling really enriched for reading that load of drivvel Flora X Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted February 1, 2008 I have a 'thing' about bourbons. I remember when I was little and used to go to my great aunt's, who had my great granddad living with her. She always gave him a plate of bourbons with his cuppa and nobody else was allowed to touch them because she was worried his hands weren't clean so guests had biccies from a different plate. I used to call them 'old men's biscuits', and it kind of stuck... I can't help thinking of bourbons as old men's biscuits! Same as jelly babies, I remember my other granddad telling me the black one's were hot (presumably because he wanted to eat them himself ) and I won't eat them now because I think they are going to taste of pepper... even though I know they don't!!! I'm sure you're feeling really enriched for reading that load of drivvel Flora X Haha ............ that's weird! Bourbons are good dunkers, though. ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
