Paula Report post Posted November 19, 2009 had an horrendous evening..............started of with 17 year old daughter NT casueing trouble and deliberatly winding up her brother so he was ranting and carrying on..............any way it all ended up with AS son and his dad shouting at each other my son kicking his dad on and on it went............i told me husband to just walk away but it was like he was possesed and wasnt going to back down and of course AS son would never see sence and back down it just fueled his temper tantrum.............i ended up in tears shouting shut up ......and the just thought you know what i just wish it would all go away im that fed up with everything.A couple of weeks ago i had an horrendous panic attack in public which saw me paralised with fear and undable to move it was horrendous all rought on by stress. Yes deep inside i know my son is almost 16 hormones are reageing,hes aspergers and a difficult customer but some days you just want to scream. bad day all round i guess.............im getting my son up for school and not mentioning any of it ...............whats the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
julie1 Report post Posted November 19, 2009 You poor thing, i no where your comming from and fully understand how you feel. But im sure you also no that it will pass until the next time that is. As your son gets older hopefully these tantrums will become fewer. I dont no any answers but i have learnt that sometimes you have to put yourself first. It is so important to take some time for yourself just to try and work through your own emotions. When your children are at school or work please take some me time and rest go out for lunch with a friend sleep if you have to. Also talk to your daughter and explain how you need her support, she is still young but old enough to try to help avoid incidents like you just had. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
concernedmummy Report post Posted November 19, 2009 Hi Paula, I can totally sympathise with your situation, although unfortunately I cannot offer you any advise. My step son, AS and now 17 was the same although he would get violent for very little reason. I was fortunate that somehow my husband generally managed to keep himself calm, although this seemed to fuel my step sons rage even more, he was looking for a fight most of the time. We had begged for help for a long time from social services and received none. The situation was horrendous and stressful beyond belief so I can understand that you would have panic attacks, it was only after my step son was taken into care (at the insistence of the domestic violence police) that I realised just how much the stress was effecting all of our lives. We really did not want for him to go into care but had to think of the other children ( I had an 8 month old at the time and my step son tried to attack me while I had the baby in my arms). Since he has been in care somehow social services have managed to offer him more help although the foster carers have had the same types of problems that we had. I would strongly suggest that you go and see you GP and explain to him about how you are feeling, you need to look after yourself, which I know ist easier said than done. I don't know what help you receive for your son but is there any chance that you would be able to get any respite care for him?? ( a tall order I know, we never managed to get any). I am sorry I cannot offer any help other than to send you lots of hugs and hope things settle down for you soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mandapanda Report post Posted November 19, 2009 had an horrendous evening..............started of with 17 year old daughter NT casueing trouble and deliberatly winding up her brother so he was ranting and carrying on..............any way it all ended up with AS son and his dad shouting at each other my son kicking his dad on and on it went............i told me husband to just walk away but it was like he was possesed and wasnt going to back down and of course AS son would never see sence and back down it just fueled his temper tantrum.............i ended up in tears shouting shut up ......and the just thought you know what i just wish it would all go away im that fed up with everything.A couple of weeks ago i had an horrendous panic attack in public which saw me paralised with fear and undable to move it was horrendous all rought on by stress. Yes deep inside i know my son is almost 16 hormones are reageing,hes aspergers and a difficult customer but some days you just want to scream. bad day all round i guess.............im getting my son up for school and not mentioning any of it ...............whats the point. Hi Paula Loads of sympathy coming your way <'> <'> <'> Firstly having 2 teenagers in the house is never easy. Secondly, having had my teenage niece living with us for a year I believe girls are very good at playing 'emotional games'. It's probably far too easy (from your daughter's point of view) to wind up her brother and thereby deflect attention away from her (hopefully she doesn't consciously realise she's doing this). Thirdly getting both parents to agree on the same approach is always difficult, more so when AS is involved. Men often seem to think that boys have to be taught to be 'men' which can sometimes mean they are harder and more (?verbally) aggressive in their manner towards boys. My husband has often felt that my approach is to just 'let them get away with things', when really I am trying to avoid confrontation which achieves absolutely nothing, so that we can talk through things and work it out to try and avoid similar situations in future, using each situation as a 'learning experience', rather than creating a "I'm right, you're wrong" situation. When we're bogged down with everything it's easy to feel you can't/don't have time to do anything for yourself. However, if you can do any little thing, it can recharge your batteries so that you can deal with everything else that little bit better. Even if you just sit somewhere quiet for 10 minutes (library?). Just a mental break from it can help. You might want to go and talk to your doctor about the strain you are under and the panic attacks. This doesn't mean you are weak or a failure or anything. It means you have an awful lot to cope with and are only human!! Personally, I am on antidepressants and they help me be calmer, plan, organise, think clearly etc, and help me to cope with most things life throws at me. I am not recommending them, it's up to you, but don't be afraid to at least try them if your doctor suggests it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sally44 Report post Posted November 19, 2009 I'm sorry I don't know all your history, so please excuse if it is totally inappropriate. Are Social Services involved at all? As he is 16 have you considered whether he will go to college? If he has a Statement have you considered residential options? It might be a way that your son learns to be more independent, and it would give the family time to recover. It could give him some life skills needed for you to even consider living independently or in sheltered accommodation. I agree you should go and see your GP. As you say, this might all be part of being a teenager (and you have 2 of them). But teenagers do become more confrontational, it is part of becoming independent. But I think those with an ASD have less control over their emotions and behaviours as they can go from zero to erupting very quickly. My husband also does not take the same action as me. I find he can be very confrontational and sometimes just turns things into a power struggle and makes the situation so much worse than it was. Sometimes his behaviour actually causes the problem when there was none to begin with . I think that is the only way many men know how to deal with these things. And when it hits the fan my husband might storm out of the house for hours, and my son is left upset and angry for hours. So it is 'me' that is left to try to smooth everything over between everyone involved. It is 'me' that has to stay in the house. I would love to be the one who storms off sometimes and just does what I want to do. I would like to be selfish occasionally. But the opportunity never arises. I'm sure that is true of many households. Maybe you also to find some time for yourself. Even if it is once a month, to get out and do something you want to do - on your own - not with anyone from the family - get a break. I was recently in hospital for a couple of weeks. I had dreaded it. But actually my husband managed, because he had to - there was no one else to pick up the pieces. And he now has a far greater respect for what I do as a stay at home mum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paula Report post Posted November 19, 2009 Thanks all Im a stay home mum have been since the kids were born so thats a hell of a long time.In answer to youre questions.no we dont have social services involved or any help out side the home...........he attends a special school...........he leaves school next year and im hopeing hell either go into a pt job at asda where he did work experiance recently and loved it or hell do an e2e course............. My son has other problems surrounding his sexual identity............ i dont realy want to go into the ins and outs of it all too complicated but im wondering if hes in turmoil over this..............ive tried tlaking to him but he shouts me down and is in denial....its not easy..............ive told him we love him no matter what but youre dealing with aspergers and confusion and teenage hormones ..............im at a loss what to do.............its alien ground................. Sometimes life just throws everything at you............... Im going out tommorrow with me mum and sister shopping and dinner...............big big gooey chocalte cake and frothy coffee will be on the menu...............and a new paire of utterly impractical high healed glam shoes............i need it......... One day ill laugh about all this................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted November 19, 2009 Hi Paula - I'm really sorry you and your family are having such a hard time at the moment, and hope things improve soon. Teenage years are very difficult and autism brings many complications <'> I hope you don't mind me saying this, but one thing I do see in your post (and even more strongly expressed in sally 44s) are some fairly negative "men - they just make it worse" sort of comments... In your own post, I see both your daughter and your partner being 'blamed' for the behaviour, but absolutely to accountability or expectation placed upon your son, who was the one actually displaying the aggressive/controlling/unreasonable behaviours. You've stated that your son actually physically attacked (kicking) his father and that your response to this was an expectation that dad accept that and 'back down'? How on earth can discipline be maintained if the one person in the home who does stand up to your son is expected not to? Sally44 - I have no idea about your own circumstances or your husbands parenting. What I can say, as an educated guess, is that anyone making such sweeping generalisatiuons as 'I think it's the only way many women know how to deal with things' coupled with the idea that their involvement with their children makes things worse would certainly generate a fairly hostile backlash. Perhaps you should 'be selfish and storm off occassionally' - it is an option - if you're prepared to enable any sort of 'say' in your son's behavioural management to the other parent involved. Maybe you would find that given the reality of someone actually not 'backing down' to his unreasonable and aggressive behaviours or enabling them by rounding on those who do things could improve all round? Maybe your husband needs to be standing up to you as well as your son? Not to 'control', but just to get things back on an equal footing so that your son knows he has two parents and that they are working together rather than in opposition? I'm not suggesting for one minute that meeting aggression with aggression is helpful, but from what i've read here that's not what's going on - Dad was the 'kicked' not the one doing the kicking? We've heard it so often on this forum: 'Dad just makes it worse - it's much better my way' but 'my way, more often than not is 'give in, let him calm down and apologise and then pretend it never happened'. I've said this many, many times in the past too: ask any battered wife / abused girlfriend (or the counsellors who help them, or the doctors who treat them) whether that works as a long term strategy and the universal answer is 'no'. Repeatedly we also hear on the forum from parents who feel their children are being bullied in school. More often than not, they feel the children doing the bullying are being 'allowed to get away with it' and that the school's cavalier attitude to bullying and aggression is wrong. Why then, in a home environment when one member of the family is behaving aggressively and in a bullying manner towards other members of the family, is the aggressor so often defended for that behaviour and his victims held accountable? Sorry, Paula, wandered slightly off track, there but not entirely, IYKWIM... Coming back to your second post and your son's sexuality... I think if you've told him once that you couldn't care less/love him for who he is etc etc then you really don't need to say it again. If you have made that clear any turmoil he might be feeling over this will have more to do with his own internal confusion and fears about the wider implications beyond his immediate family. With the best will in the world you won't be able to help him with that, and trying to get him to talk about it will feel like pressure/intrusion however gently you go about it. Your chance to support him will come later, when he's more confident about how he feels about it all. Hope that's helpful L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxgirl Report post Posted November 19, 2009 Hi Paula, so sorry to hear about the tough time you're having, hope things have settled down now. I was just struck really by your last sentence in your post .............im getting my son up for school and not mentioning any of it ...............whats the point. and hope you don't mind me commenting. I've not been in your situation and I don't know what it's like and I'm sure you've tried lots and lots of things. I just feel that ignoring a serious situation like this is the worst thing to do, if you don't mind me saying. I think you need to really confront your lad's behaviour, get it out in the open and discuss it and make him see you will not ignore or accept it. Could you call a family conference and sit down together and make it clear you won't tolerate his violence. Could you and your husband put up a united front and explain to your son the consequences to him if this kind of behaviour is repeated and make it really hurt and follow through with it? I just can't help feeling that by ignoring it you are letting him pretend it didn't happen and that everything carries on as normal and that it's okay for him to behave like this and there are no consequences if he does. <'> ~ Mel ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paula Report post Posted November 19, 2009 Baddad.........Oxygirl......... very very valid points both of you i take all you say on boards. Beleive you me when i say theres no point mentioning it this morning doesnt mean i dont mentioning it later on in the day maybe when he comes home from school.Its just to mention it before he goes to school on the bus may mean he kicks of againe and then all hell may kick of and he wouldnt be able to go.But i do mention incidents like this and say to him look its not nice to behave like that............it upsets people............ect ect................You cant reason with my son when hes in the middloe of a meltdown ,tantrum ,outburst...............theres no point it fuels it...............he normally takes himself to his room and kicks the wall or bangs a round i leave him to it and he regaines his composure.............my husbands approach is to try and sort it has its happening and it makes it all worse coz you get no where........... Yes at times im guilty of anything for a quiete life and i dont confront him.................why........well hes six foot 2 weighs 12 stone and towers above me...............am i scared of him...............sometimes i fear id not be able to stop him if he set about me so rightly or wrongly i dont stop him when hes of on one for fear hell utterly loose it and set about me. He is on the whole a decent young man who is very calm............his sister does know what buttons to push to provoke a reaction shes no inicent...............shes 17 and a paine her self at times.............. Can i also point out and i have mentioned it before that i myself have a diagnosis of BI Polar disorder and cant deal with stress very well.............ive to avoide it at all cost....................lol............fat chance.else it sets of all sorts of issues with in myself.......... Life hey Int it great.................... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pearl Report post Posted November 19, 2009 <'> big hugs Paula <'> probably not much help right now, but JP's anger is getting much more manageable as he enters his 20s. Meltdowns are much rarer & shorter than they used to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
got the tshirt Report post Posted November 19, 2009 Hi Paula sorry you're having such a hard time, it must be really scarey to be in a situation that is out of your control and I can totally understand why you try to difuse the situation by asking your partner to back down. I have had situations similar to this with my Dd1, when she still lived at home she refused to follow any of the house rules and I used to find myself stuck between her and my partner. It is very damaging to everyone involved and I hope you can get some help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
concernedmummy Report post Posted November 19, 2009 I can understand how difficult these situations are, I have been in them many times myself. Can I ask what sanctions your son will have put in place following his violence??? I obviously don't know your son but with my step son he could control himself if he wanted to, he would mostly kick off when he was told he couldn't have something he wanted and thought that by being intimidating and getting violent he could get what he wanted (this unfortunately worked with his mother). I agree with what Baddad said in his post, my husband and I aleays sang from the same songsheet in these situations as my step son would try and play us off against one another, we might not always have agreed with how the other handled the situation but that would be discussed later out of earshot of my step son. The first time he punched me ( I was pregnant at the time) we contacted the police, they were really helpful and had a very long talk with him, I have to say that he really behaved himself for quite a while after the police gave him a talking to. I too was terrified of my stepson, he was strong, especially when 'on one', but I made sure not to allow him to see it which was very difficult at times (especially when pregnant), he even used to say to me (when he was calm) he knew I was frightened of him, I just used to laugh and say that I had been around bigger and stronger bullies than him. I would strongly suggest that you contact social services and see if you can get him and yourselves some help. The biggest difficulty I think in these situations is that you deal with them instinctively at the time and it is often only upon reflection that you can maybe see how you could have handled things better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paula Report post Posted November 19, 2009 With hinds sight it all could have been handle so much better...............isnt that always the case................. Thing is i depseratly try not to let my inner fealings show when dealing with him what ever hes up to however difficult he is.........to be brutaly honest i fear if i let the lid slip of the pot even a tiny bit id loose controll and all the pent up emotions and upset ive bottled up over the years all the frustration would come out and id never get that lid back on againe. I dont let him see im scared and it is hard..............sometimes rarely i must admit hell front up to me get right up into my face and its hard to stand there and not quake in youre shoes......... I do most of the care surrounding me son.........i deal with everything...............i am a stay home mum after all..............his dad goes to work................i know all me sons ins and outs what makes him tick...what sets him of ........how best to handle situations so they dont boil over....so even if it does ruffle a few feathers his dad doesnt understand certaine aspects of being aspergers he just doesnt get it................ I try to say look were dealing with a teenage boy,were dealing with hormones............were dealing with confusion on the sexual front........and then to top it of with a great big cherry hes got blasted aspergers................its a difficult time.Up untill 12 months ago things were a lot calmer and settled so i do think hormones are playing a part in all this. Cnsequences for his behaviour...........well iver never struck him ever...........oh ive fealt like it at times ...........but never have done..............when he gets all too much and we cant take no more we just say get to youre room now and dont show youre face unless youre comeing down to apologise.........eventually he does and we say thanks and move on. Things are never simple there never that clear cut................its never as easy as lets all stay calm and chat about it......lets go and get some outside help..........no begger wants to know..............i was once told my son dint qualify for any help because he wasnt disabled.............i cant get any respite not even something called family link coz his grandparents are close by and fit and well and young and theres more deserving and needy cases......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
concernedmummy Report post Posted November 19, 2009 I didn't mean consequenses as in getting physical with him I meant for example no pc for a certain amount of time, whatever is his favourite past time, just giving you an apology is not really a sanction, would you accept the same type of behaviour from your NT child without repercussions??? It is hard trying not to be scared, god knows how many times my step son would front up to me, I would be shaking inside! I do agree that hormones will be making matters worse, but not of that excuses what he is doing, have you tried telling him exactly how his behaviour makes you feel??? Although I know that with AS there is little if any empathy, if you try and talk to him and ask how he would feel in the same situation and how he would handle it, it may just give him food for thought..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
concernedmummy Report post Posted November 19, 2009 With regard to getting help, I know that we never got any, we even got in touch with our MP at one point, but I would try... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Hi Paula, so sorry to hear about the tough time you're having, hope things have settled down now. I was just struck really by your last sentence in your post and hope you don't mind me commenting. I've not been in your situation and I don't know what it's like and I'm sure you've tried lots and lots of things. I just feel that ignoring a serious situation like this is the worst thing to do, if you don't mind me saying. I think you need to really confront your lad's behaviour, get it out in the open and discuss it and make him see you will not ignore or accept it. Could you call a family conference and sit down together and make it clear you won't tolerate his violence. Could you and your husband put up a united front and explain to your son the consequences to him if this kind of behaviour is repeated and make it really hurt and follow through with it? I just can't help feeling that by ignoring it you are letting him pretend it didn't happen and that everything carries on as normal and that it's okay for him to behave like this and there are no consequences if he does. <'> ~ Mel ~ What about preventing it happening in the 1st place. Shouldn't the provoker be punished rather than the reactor? When my mum and i live together we drive each other around the bend. She tells me not to argue then brings up subjects she knows im going to have a problem with. Also shes trying to normalise me by telling me to "be less autistic" and "learn to recognise your own tone of voice" er i need someone to teach me this in a way i can understand. Somehow comparing the autistic sons behaviour with battered wives/husbands isn't going to help. NT beaters know what they are doing and how it is likely to upset the other person. Autistics don't necessarily have this ability. Emotional control in autistics is worse than in NTs. His sister knows how to wind up her brother and is managing to get away with it. As an NT she should know better. Telling her "if you continue to wind up your brother then (name of consequence) will occur" could shock her into stopping the behaviour. Confused about your sexuality is a difficult subject to tackle, it covers emotions, feelings and being different to an extent something many autistics cannot deal with. Some are ok to be themselves but others will find peer pressure too much. Does he watch any programs with gay/bi characters in? Does he have any gay/bi friends he can talk too about how he feels? i gave one of my asperger friends a book called "homos" from another asperger friend. It opened up some doors and now 2 of my asperger friends have a subject they can discuss if they wish too. i knew i wasnt the right person to help my friend so i asked another willing asperger friend to give me a hand. HTH Alexis Edited November 20, 2009 by trekster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 20, 2009 I can understand how difficult these situations are, I have been in them many times myself. Can I ask what sanctions your son will have put in place following his violence??? I obviously don't know your son but with my step son he could control himself if he wanted to, he would mostly kick off when he was told he couldn't have something he wanted and thought that by being intimidating and getting violent he could get what he wanted (this unfortunately worked with his mother). Please stop portraying autistics as behaving like spoilt kids. Also her son reacted to being provoked, why should that be punished? I agree with what Baddad said in his post, my husband and I always sang from the same songsheet in these situations as my step son would try and play us off against one another, we might not always have agreed with how the other handled the situation but that would be discussed later out of earshot of my step son. The first time he punched me ( I was pregnant at the time) we contacted the police, they were really helpful and had a very long talk with him, I have to say that he really behaved himself for quite a while after the police gave him a talking to. i hit a pregnant person and threw a drink in her face. i did this as i was out of control by having sodium benzoate in my medication. Without the sodium and other benzoates in my diet i am not violent. I too was terrified of my stepson, he was strong, especially when 'on one', but I made sure not to allow him to see it which was very difficult at times (especially when pregnant), he even used to say to me (when he was calm) he knew I was frightened of him, I just used to laugh and say that I had been around bigger and stronger bullies than him. I would strongly suggest that you contact social services and see if you can get him and yourselves some help. The biggest difficulty I think in these situations is that you deal with them instinctively at the time and it is often only upon reflection that you can maybe see how you could have handled things better. When he mentioned "i know you are frightened of me", what was his body language, tone or voice etc like? He could have been apologising or saying it in a "i don't know how to stop or what to do type of mode". I'm pleased my carer didn't phone the police on me. That incident (the baby survived and now plays happily with auntie lexi) was enough for me to realise that i needed to do something. i went gluten and dairy free again and off the liquid risperidal AMA. i also started taking supplements. Without that realisation i would have been dead or sectioned by now (not exaggerating). Alexis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 20, 2009 I didn't mean consequences as in getting physical with him I meant for example no pc for a certain amount of time, whatever is his favourite past time, just giving you an apology is not really a sanction, would you accept the same type of behaviour from your NT child without repercussions??? An NT child has better emotional control over their actions and behaviour than an autistic. You cannot treat them the same. It is hard trying not to be scared, god knows how many times my step son would front up to me, I would be shaking inside! I do agree that hormones will be making matters worse, but not of that excuses what he is doing, have you tried telling him exactly how his behaviour makes you feel??? Although I know that with AS there is little if any empathy, if you try and talk to him and ask how he would feel in the same situation and how he would handle it, it may just give him food for thought..... Actually hormonal conditions such as PMT have been used as sufficient defence in a court of law. Emotions are only going to confuse the lad, he cant tell who or what he wishes to be with. Actually its not little or no empathy it's an overload of other emotions which prevents empathy from coming to the surface. Asking "how would you feel if i did x?" didn't help me at all just hindered me and supports the "naught spoilt teenager acting up" theory instead of the "confused autistic on overload" fact. When asked i normally answers "i don't know how i would react depends on a lot of things". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Hi Paula, Really sorry to hear you're going through such a rough time <'> My son is 20, and after residential special school now works full-time in a supermarket. We had huge problems with aggression when he was a little boy, but we were lucky enough to have professional input when he was 8 with a behavioural therapy programme. We tried to follow this as closely as we could, plodding on for literally years. Now as an adult, my son has responsibility at work, and apart from the very odd bit of brief 'gobbiness' at home he is extremely good company and is never aggressive at all. Reading through this thread, I would say from our experience that the main way to tackle aggression is to have clear, firm boundaries and equally clear and concrete consequences. Of course this has to be done within an understanding of autism, but I don't think that simply talking things through after episodes of aggression is enough to alter negative behaviour patterns. Boundaries need to be very firm and clearly explained, backed up with visual reminders/cues. Ditto the consequences of aggressive behaviour. By 'concrete consequences' I mean my son actually losing something that was important to him (in his case it was access to the computer)...or if you prefer you can turn that around and say your son 'wins' whatever is important to him through not being aggressive (i.e. extra computer time or whatever). This is exactly how behavioural problems are turned around at the residential school where I work. I also think you need to have firm boundaries and clear consequences for your DD's behaviour in relation to your son, too I also think it's really important that both parents present a united front. I'm afraid it's very normal for all/most teenage lads to challenge their dads, as it's all about challenging the Alpha male. Which is why it's important, in my opinion, that dad is a strong figure. Sally44, I think it's interesting that you say your DH managed perfectly well when you were in hospital...dare I say maybe because he was able to parent without you contradicting him? In my experience, both parents need to make each other feel confident and supported in their parenting. Trekster: having firm boundaries and concrete consequences for aggression is not treating autistic children like spoilt kids. In the real world there are very clear consequences for adults who behave aggressively. If parents don't tackle aggressive behaviour, once their children are out in the real world if they kick off they will either end up in a police cell, or flat on their backs, depending on who they attack In my personal and professional opinion I think it actually disables people much more if you don't have clear expectations of acceptable behaviour. Aggressive behaviour is never acceptable (which is not to say that you don't understand why someone has behaved in a certain way and attempt to moderate/avoid certain triggers, etc). Concernedmummy: I agree with most of what you say. However, it simply isn't true to say that people with AS have little or no empathy. I couldn't have stayed married for over 16 years, had 4 kids and work with children with severe special needs if that was the case! Our processing time/methods may well be different, but that's most certainly not the same has having no empathy. Last of all, just to show how things can change hugely from childhood to adulthood: yesterday when my son heard his little sister was going into hospital he instantly offered to take his little brother to school in the mornings, and to swap his shifts at work around so that he could collect him from school Think about all the social/empathy stuff that's going on in that reaction Good luck, Paula <'> and have school any ideas for tackling his aggression? Bid Edited November 20, 2009 by bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mandapanda Report post Posted November 20, 2009 had an horrendous evening..............started of with 17 year old daughter NT casueing trouble and deliberatly winding up her brother so he was ranting and carrying on..............any way it all ended up with AS son and his dad shouting at each other my son kicking his dad on and on it went............i told me husband to just walk away but it was like he was possesed and wasnt going to back down and of course AS son would never see sence and back down it just fueled his temper tantrum.............i ended up in tears shouting shut up ......and the just thought you know what i just wish it would all go away im that fed up with everything.A couple of weeks ago i had an horrendous panic attack in public which saw me paralised with fear and undable to move it was horrendous all rought on by stress. Yes deep inside i know my son is almost 16 hormones are reageing,hes aspergers and a difficult customer but some days you just want to scream. bad day all round i guess.............im getting my son up for school and not mentioning any of it ...............whats the point. Hi Paula Could you talk to your son in a calmer moment and ask him what he thinks should be done in these sorts of situations? Not that he should have the say of what happens, just that it may bring to light what is really going on for him, what is really the problem, what his thought process is and emotions are, and what he thinks is the best way for him to be able to calm down quicker and avoid being aggressive. I have personally found this approach to be much more productive than 'clamping down' and 'laying down the law' and much more of a learning opportunity (for all of us), but of course every one is different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paula Report post Posted November 20, 2009 I am of the thinking that you cant treat to soem extents an austistic like you would an NT it just doesnt work. I do feal my daughter has a lot to answer for she knows exactly what buttons to push to set her brother of and brings up subjects such as his sexuality by name calling him knowing full well hell go of on one.Ive played hell with her many a time saying youre almost 18 youre meant to be the one whos "normal" for better want of a word for gods sake leave him alone. My son does show that he understands other peoples emotions and he has empathy............a few weeks ago i was fealing unwell and i said oh i feel dizzy and hot ............he said ill get you a cold drink mum make you better......to me that shows he cares about people. He was fine last night and we had a pleasent evening all round..............surprise surprise his sister wasnt here because she was at her boyfreinds............ Im not saying we should all just give in and be ruled by whatever our autistic kids want......but i cant see the point of makeing life diffiuclt for everyone by insisting they behave and respond like NTs its never going to happen......allowances have to be made...........lets face it if they behaved and responded like NTs then we wouldnt be here on this web site. Thankyou for youre help and support .........it helps to know im not alone......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted November 20, 2009 Hi Paula - I don't think anyone is suggesting that you shouldn't make any allowances for an autistic person - they just have different views about what those allowances should be and how they should be enacted. Enabling violence, aggression, rudeness, controlling behaviour, victimisation, intimidation etc by defending it or not imposing sanctions or even - as you seem to be saying here - having no expectation for anything more on the assumption that the behaviours arise purely as a consequence of autism, is not going to benefit anyone, including the autistic person. You say you can't see the point of making life difficult for everyone by expecting the autistic person to change their behaviour, but also say that your husband has been assaulted and that you are ill and having panic attacks as a result of the tensions that arise as a consequence of the behaviours. I think everyone's lives are already difficult, and will continue to be so until your son learns to modify some of his more extreme behaviours. That's not 'treating him like an NT', but treating him like a human being and having expectations that he behave with some degree of consideration for others and exercise some degree of self-control when he finds life challenging. The title of this post is 'Can't handle it - son getting more violent'. And I, like several others I guess from the responses you received, interpreted that to mean that you want that situation to change. If you do, you actually have to do something to change it, and that, almost certainly, will mean a change in the way you respond to the behaviours rather than a continuation of the current pattern of 'acceptance for a quiet life'. I think it also means shifting the emphasis on responsibility away from your husband and daughter, and accepting that the only person who can really be responsible for his behaviour is your son. Very, Very best L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karen A Report post Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) I am of the thinking that you cant treat to soem extents an austistic like you would an NT it just doesnt work. I do feal my daughter has a lot to answer for she knows exactly what buttons to push to set her brother of and brings up subjects such as his sexuality by name calling him knowing full well hell go of on one.Ive played hell with her many a time saying youre almost 18 youre meant to be the one whos "normal" for better want of a word for gods sake leave him alone. Hi Paula.We have Ben who is 11 and has AS and can be very challenging to parent.We also have J who is 13 and NT. I just thought it worth saying please do not have overoptimistic expectations of your daughter.I am sure she winds her brother up but that is what teenage sibblings do.I am not saying condone her behaviour.However it is a big deal having a brother with ASD.Your daughter does need support. I do not like to think about the issue too much as it is not comfortable.However brothers and sisters usually are around long after parents are gone.If you want your daughter to have a positive relationship with her brother it will not help to tell your daughter in strong terms that she is normal and her brother is different....so she should be the one that makes allowances all of the time. J is the most supportive brother Ben could hope for.But I know he finds it difficult when allowances are made for Ben.He also has to cope with many situations that are very difficult for a teenager.When you are working hard to be cool and accepted by peers it does not help to have a brother at the same school that is regarded as a bit of a geek and likes nothing better than to chatt with teachers. When J was younger he was so supportive that he accepted pysical violence from Ben.Ben became more and more controlling to the point where we could hardly do anything that did not fit with his agenda.Things are much better now after a lot of support from CAMHS including help for my husband and myself to work together in parenting.However J also needed support in being able to have firm boundaries . Ben is also much easier when J is not around but that has nothing to do with J.Ben just finds it easier when he does not need to negotiate. We have the situation where J will now opt to go to friends after school in order to have a break from Ben and just have time to be.As I love J dearly it is sad that J feels he has to do this. Please do try to think about both of your children.I know it is not easy but if you have such a negative relationship with your daughter you risk alienating her all together. She is 18 and may well have all of her own worries that you know little about. It is worth remembering that you and your partner are the parents here. I may sound like I am taking a strong line.However having been in therapy with CAMHS for three years I know that a strong determination is needed to deal with challenging behaviour and to work as a couple to turn things around.However unsupportive your daughter might be there is still a need to deal with your son's violence and you cannot do that by condoning your son's behaviour and blaming your daughter. Edited November 20, 2009 by Karen A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 20, 2009 Trekster: having firm boundaries and concrete consequences for aggression is not treating autistic children like spoilt kids. In the real world there are very clear consequences for adults who behave aggressively. If parents don't tackle aggressive behaviour, once their children are out in the real world if they kick off they will either end up in a police cell, or flat on their backs, depending on who they attack (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) In my personal and professional opinion I think it actually disables people much more if you don't have clear expectations of acceptable behaviour. Aggressive behaviour is never acceptable (which is not to say that you don't understand why someone has behaved in a certain way and attempt to moderate/avoid certain triggers, etc). my response; Firm boundaries i agree with, but why punish someone for reacting to their sisters wind ups? Wont the sister do it all the more if you keep punishing the reacter instead of the provoker? In the real world there is an autism alert card for situations like this one. i used to display aggressive behaviour but now it is a lot less (complicated by the fact i cannot tell when i "seem aggressive" NAS autism alert card 2005). If people dont wind me up on purpose i am less likely to kick off, i even handled a parent having a go at me last night in our pub group whilst trying to negotiate reasonable adjustments with her. Something im unable to do if i have dietary triggers inside of me. If you treat the aggressive behaviour using diet and supplements you can help the person to be less likely to react. Whats clear to one person isnt clear to another. Im studying the BPhil in Autism at the moment and "challenging behaviour? or communication" is my current essay. The NAS Hayes unit describes challenging behaviour as "a possible source of communication" and strives to modify it with alternatives. So for example instead of hitting his sister he could say in a loud voice "go away (name of sister" or "stop winding me up sis". Instead of playing with my playmobils loudly i try and talk quieter with them. Alexis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 20, 2009 Hi Paula - I don't think anyone is suggesting that you shouldn't make any allowances for an autistic person - they just have different views about what those allowances should be and how they should be enacted. Enabling violence, aggression, rudeness, controlling behaviour, victimisation, intimidation etc by defending it or not imposing sanctions or even - as you seem to be saying here - having no expectation for anything more on the assumption that the behaviours arise purely as a consequence of autism, is not going to benefit anyone, including the autistic person. It can if you identify the triggers eg bored sis and try and avoid them. You say you can't see the point of making life difficult for everyone by expecting the autistic person to change their behaviour, but also say that your husband has been assaulted and that you are ill and having panic attacks as a result of the tensions that arise as a consequence of the behaviours. I think everyone's lives are already difficult, and will continue to be so until your son learns to modify some of his more extreme behaviours. That's not 'treating him like an NT', but treating him like a human being and having expectations that he behave with some degree of consideration for others and exercise some degree of self-control when he finds life challenging. Executive functioning problems mean many autistics are unable to do this; "Executive dysfunction in autism - ‘Executive function’ is an umbrella term for functions such as planning, working memory, impulse control, inhibition and mental flexibility, as well as for the initiation and monitoring of action. The primacy of executive dysfunction in autism is a topic of much debate, as are recent attempts to examine subtypes of executive function within autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders that are considered to implicate frontal lobe function. This article will review cognitive behavioural studies of planning, mental flexibility and inhibition in autism. It is concluded that more detailed research is needed to fractionate the executive system in autism by assessing a wide range of executive functions as well as their neuroanatomical correlates in the same individuals across the lifespan by Elisabeth L. Hill Department of Psychology, Goldsmiths College, University of London, Whitehead Building, New Cross, London, SE14 6NW, UK" Source http://www.co-brass.com/articles_executive_function.htm The title of this post is 'Can't handle it - son getting more violent'. And I, like several others I guess from the responses you received, interpreted that to mean that you want that situation to change. If you do, you actually have to do something to change it, and that, almost certainly, will mean a change in the way you respond to the behaviours rather than a continuation of the current pattern of 'acceptance for a quiet life'. I think it also means shifting the emphasis on responsibility away from your husband and daughter, and accepting that the only person who can really be responsible for his behaviour is your son. Very, Very best L&P BD Personally i think that is expecting too much. If i was told off every time my sister wound me up i would probably end up topping myself. Alexis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted November 20, 2009 Hi Alexis - Nobody is suggesting 'telling him off every time his sister winds him up', or that identifying triggers and avoiding them are inappropriate responses. I agree that some of the exectuitive functioning problems do exist for some autistic people - perhaps even all autistic people - to some degree, either in isolation or tandem. But exercising some degree of control isn't, in my experience, beyond the capacity of most high-functioning autistic people or even many who are lower functioning but have some degree of social awareness/expectation. If it is expecting too much for an autistic person to have some degree of responsibility/accountability for their own behaviour than the opportunities for that individual will be very, very narrow. I'm not making any sort of 'value judgement' about that, and if someone needs the kind of support levels suggested by such a profound level of compromised social control then I'm all for them receiving it. I just think than any alternatives should be fully explored first. Hope that clarifies things. L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Trekster: having firm boundaries and concrete consequences for aggression is not treating autistic children like spoilt kids. In the real world there are very clear consequences for adults who behave aggressively. If parents don't tackle aggressive behaviour, once their children are out in the real world if they kick off they will either end up in a police cell, or flat on their backs, depending on who they attack (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) In my personal and professional opinion I think it actually disables people much more if you don't have clear expectations of acceptable behaviour. Aggressive behaviour is never acceptable (which is not to say that you don't understand why someone has behaved in a certain way and attempt to moderate/avoid certain triggers, etc). my response; Firm boundaries i agree with, but why punish someone for reacting to their sisters wind ups? Wont the sister do it all the more if you keep punishing the reacter instead of the provoker? In the real world there is an autism alert card for situations like this one. i used to display aggressive behaviour but now it is a lot less (complicated by the fact i cannot tell when i "seem aggressive" NAS autism alert card 2005). If people dont wind me up on purpose i am less likely to kick off, i even handled a parent having a go at me last night in our pub group whilst trying to negotiate reasonable adjustments with her. Something im unable to do if i have dietary triggers inside of me. If you treat the aggressive behaviour using diet and supplements you can help the person to be less likely to react. Whats clear to one person isnt clear to another. Im studying the BPhil in Autism at the moment and "challenging behaviour? or communication" is my current essay. The NAS Hayes unit describes challenging behaviour as "a possible source of communication" and strives to modify it with alternatives. So for example instead of hitting his sister he could say in a loud voice "go away (name of sister" or "stop winding me up sis". Instead of playing with my playmobils loudly i try and talk quieter with them. Alexis Hi Alexis, You can see my sentence I have highlighted...and in my original post I also said that tackling aggression needs to be done within an understanding of autism. Like Paula I had a son who was extremely physically and verbally aggressive. We were lucky enough to have the professional advice and support of an autistim-specific team from one of the first two specialist paediatric diagnostic centres in the country. I thought it might help her to hear what we did as by following this behavioural therapy we were able to support my son in turning round his negative behaviour. For want of a better expression, he is well into the autistic spectrum, but now at 20 I think the last time he displayed any aggressive behaviour towards us was when he was 14. He now works full-time and deals well with aggressive customers, shop-lifters and liaising with the police. I don't think he would be able to do this if his first response was still to be aggressive. I am very well aware that challenging behaviour is a form of communication. I work with young people who display some of the most challenging behaviour you will encounter. Again, the behaviour modification programmes we use are based on firm boundaries, concrete consequences and most importantly the clearly expressed expectation that they can modify their behaviour. And I have seen how our young people have been able to move forward with their behavioural problems as a result. Bid Edited November 20, 2009 by bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 20, 2009 Hi Alexis - Nobody is suggesting 'telling him off every time his sister winds him up', or that identifying triggers and avoiding them are inappropriate responses. I agree that some of the exectuitive functioning problems do exist for some autistic people - perhaps even all autistic people - to some degree, either in isolation or tandem. But exercising some degree of control isn't, in my experience, beyond the capacity of most high-functioning autistic people or even many who are lower functioning but have some degree of social awareness/expectation. i think it depends on the individual and other outside factors. Tony Atwood is where im getting my sources from and also experience of attending the social groups. It mentions "poor emotional and impulse control". If it is expecting too much for an autistic person to have some degree of responsibility/accountability for their own behaviour than the opportunities for that individual will be very, very narrow. I'm not making any sort of 'value judgement' about that, and if someone needs the kind of support levels suggested by such a profound level of compromised social control then I'm all for them receiving it. I just think than any alternatives should be fully explored first. Hope that clarifies things. L&P BD What i meant by expecting too much is for him "not to react" or to "just ignore his sister". "Cannot foresee consequences of their actions" is on autism alert cards. i guess the point im making is "would he all of a sudden blow up if NOT provoked?" It sounds like his sister is bored which is why she is winding up her brother. By alternatives i mean "removed the cause and the consequence should stop". Personally a talking down to by the parents should happen after they incident occurs. Otherwise its the same as telling a ticing tourettic to stop swearing when they have that as part of their tourettes (about 15% of tourettics do) Another suggestion i was going to make was that mum sit down with each kid in turn separately and ask "why do you wind your brother up?" Also ask the brother "why do you hit out when (name of sister) teases you?" Find out why they are doing the behaviour and remove it. i wish i could do that with my mum but she wont accept shes milk and gluten addicted so her brain cannot think right. i discovered that my meds were causing my eruptions, also my diet was a problem. i couldn't concentrate properly on things so i ended up asking repetitive questions (one autistic behaviour i cannot cope with since ive found a way to prevent it from happening), forgetting a list of 6 items to get from the supermarket and stuffing myself with the wrong stuff. Alexis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) I am of the thinking that you cant treat to soem extents an austistic like you would an NT it just doesnt work. subjects such as his sexuality by name calling him knowing full well hell go of on one.Ive played hell with her many a time saying youre almost 18 youre meant to be the one whos "normal" for better want of a word for gods sake leave him alone. My son does show that he understands other peoples emotions and he has empathy............a few weeks ago i was fealing I do feal my daughter has a lot to answer for she knows exactly what buttons to push to set her brother of and brings up unwell and i said oh i feel dizzy and hot ............he said ill get you a cold drink mum make you better......to me that shows he cares about people. He was fine last night and we had a pleasent evening all round..............surprise surprise his sister wasnt here because she was at her boyfreinds............ Im not saying we should all just give in and be ruled by whatever our autistic kids want......but i cant see the point of makeing life diffiuclt for everyone by insisting they behave and respond like NTs its never going to happen......allowances have to be made...........lets face it if they behaved and responded like NTs then we wouldnt be here on this web site. Thankyou for youre help and support .........it helps to know im not alone......... Hi again Paula, None of the behaviour strategies I have tried to describe here that were successful for us and are used where I work aim to make the autistic person behave like an NT. Rather, the aim is to enable and support the autistic person to be as independent as they possibly can be out in the real world by tackling their challenging behaviour. None of this work is done in an aggressive, confrontational way. It's done with firmness, but in a positive, caring way...and backed up by hours of patient work helping the autistic person recognise their emotions, boosting their self-esteem and helping their confidence. I know your son goes to a special school. If you talk to them you might find they have some good ideas/strategies, maybe things they could print off for you to look at. Bid Edited November 20, 2009 by bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 20, 2009 bid wrote; You can see my sentence I have highlighted...and in my original post I also said that tackling aggression needs to be done within an understanding of autism. trekster reply i was aware of this and didnt disagree with that part when i replied. It sounded like you meant moderate their behaviour instead of their response or yours which i now realise after further information is the latter instead of the former. bid then wrote Like Paula I had a son who was extremely physically and verbally aggressive. We were lucky enough to have the professional advice and support of an autistim-specific team from one of the first two specialist paediatric diagnostic centres in the country. I thought it might help her to hear what we did as by following this behavioural therapy we were able to support my son in turning round his negative behaviour. trekster reply Pleased you managed to find something that helped your son, for me behavioural therapy would never work unless it was learning about things i felt ready to learn about. i never can tell when im sounding aggressive (only when im not sounding aggressive). Impressions of my voice just upset me with the emotional overwhelming nature of my aspergers. i am b6, mag, fatty acid, b12 deficient and correcting these deficiencies has greatly helped me reduce the number of incidents. Im also a PTSD survivor so you cannot help one without taking account of the other in my case. i was diagnosed asperger 14 years ago, i went gluten, dairy, msg, aspartame, benzoate free and have never looked back. bid then wrote For want of a better expression, he is well into the autistic spectrum, but now at 20 I think the last time he displayed any aggressive behaviour towards us was when he was 14. He now works full-time and deals well with aggressive customers, shop-lifters and liaising with the police. I don't think he would be able to do this if his first response was still to be aggressive. trekster reply Sounds like he was taught in a way he could understand and respond to. i get orders shouted at me by others and also get told about my behaviour in front of others. Somehow folk think by publicly humiliating me they can normalise me some way. That doesn't sound like how your son was helped. im unable to work full time due to my other conditions especially the fibromyalgia and mental health problems. bid wrote I am very well aware that challenging behaviour is a form of communication. I work with young people who display some of the most challenging behaviour you will encounter. Again, the behaviour modification programmes we use are based on firm boundaries, concrete consequences and most importantly the clearly expressed expectation that they can modify their behaviour. I have seen how our young people have been able to move forward with their behavioural problems as a result. Bid smile.gif trekster reply im in contact with autistic folk in the adult social groups and im also the social secretary with another Asperger in the pan Avon area. i don't know if you agreed or disagreed with my comments mentioned? i mean about finding alternative ways of expressing "go away sis"? Does this mean you work at the Hayes Unit? as that is my definition of "some of the most challenging behaviour i will encounter". Are you using ABA or something else to modify their behaviour? i wholly disagree with ABA especially the forms of punishments used to control autistics. Alexis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) trekster reply im in contact with autistic folk in the adult social groups and im also the social secretary with another Asperger in the pan Avon area. i don't know if you agreed or disagreed with my comments mentioned? i mean about finding alternative ways of expressing "go away sis"? Does this mean you work at the Hayes Unit? as that is my definition of "some of the most challenging behaviour i will encounter". Are you using ABA or something else to modify their behaviour? i wholly disagree with ABA especially the forms of punishments used to control autistics. No, I work at a residential special school for children and young people with a range of severe special needs (probably the majority on the autistic spectrum) and complex medical needs, including those who experience psychotic episodes. We don't use ABA/Sonrise, etc...I too disagree with these approaches. I can see my clumsy use of the term behaviour 'modification' has perhaps confused things! Sorry about that Bid Edited November 20, 2009 by bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted November 20, 2009 I think it depends on the individual and other outside factors. I totally agree, and I think many disabled indiividuals (not just the autistic disabled, but certainly some at the at the high functioning end of autism) are totally capable of exploiting peoples narrowed expectations of them. I also think outside factors like being enabled to be disabled can play a huge part in how disabled people (again, not just autistic) present themselves to the outside world. Not talking about any professionals in particular, but I think all professionals are potentially victims of their own 'hype' and of believing their own hype and also run the risk of being quoted/taken out of context. Undoubtedly all professional's have a vested interest in keeping their specific area of 'expertise' an area of 'expertise' and promoting ideas of radical difference to justify that expertise. If they don't they're, erm, out of a job... That's something all parents, and all professionals, really do need to keep in mind - these peoples incomes. mortgages, lifestyle etc are all wholly dependant on the status of disabled people remaining disabled within our society. Autism in particular seems to be a partcicularly fertile area for exploitation these days, as you've highlighted in your own posts with mention of certain behavioural management regimes. Self diagnosis (or casual diagnosis/projected casual diagnosis) is also rife at the moment, and a fair number of people are making exceedingly good livings by pandering to that trend. I'm also completely of the opinion that parents - including your truly - and autistic people themselves can and do get it 'wrong', and I think the biggest part of getting it wrong is often assumption. I think the most damaging assumptions are those made about what people 'can't do', and that assumptions about what they 'can do' come a close second. Speculation about what they might be able to achieve and strategies and support mechanisms to enable exploration of those factors and ascertain their viability, are, IMO, the most beneficial. I think I'll bow out of this thread for now; it seems to have wandered from the topic the OP initially raised, which described a boy abusing other family members and disrupting their home, and the need to explore solutions for those behaviours. BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paula Report post Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) OH heck cant be arsed getting into any of this. Thanks for letting me have a moan . Edited November 21, 2009 by Paula Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiley1590 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 i used to agressive violent angry all frustration built up inside of me i lashed out to 'who you love the most you hurt the most' that so true i found so hard to 'break' this behaviour pattern i was put on meds from CAMHS anti-pyschotic risperdal (risperdone) didn't seem to do anything for me really touch me i still struggling i can also see it probably depressive state of mind too going on could this be the case with your son or anxiety based? but physical signs are anger etc ??? i get so scared frightened after i done all this i just felt like 'another person' had taken over my body so a rage meltdown to try explain what going on i couldn't work it out find the words normally blow up over 'silly stupid things' it sounds so weird strange i did it on my own really fought back from the anger side of me isn't easy to turn around and be different it hard to see hurt the ones that 'protect' you through the NT world! i threatened my mum on alot of occassions which i'm not proud of whatsoever!!! i won't TRY and excuse this appauling diisgusting way of being towards anyone! i come up to her with a knife i felt like i had 'no control' over my mind body nothing it doesn't justify struggling to make sense of anything why i here with 'this thing' inside my head i ended up suicidal after these situations with police and ambulance being called by my mum and me being taken to A &E hosp as was SO depressed i couldn't answer anything properly i don't think i even got why i did it! it made me feel more bitter,guilty bad about myself and my life the situation just end up spiralling out of control lasting for hours i'd take any tablets out the cupboard (overdosing) as didn't know how to cope deal with appropriately it's so isolating having this there everyday makes you want to 'explode' at anyone in your way blame them yourself as just want to 'run away hide get rid of yourself' as struggle controlling thoughts,feelings/emotions all gets 'too much pressure' i looked so crazy i just go into my onw 'mad' state of zone and told my ages to calm down by that stage i need a sleep i so tired i worn myself out i'd be verablly shouting swearing i so felt torn like jeyll and hyde just wanted it to 'stop' but couldn't find out how powerless felt such a failure of acting this way! couldn't escape breathe felt like it overwhelming suffocating you literally unbearable to live with or be around my parents was like 'walking on eggshells' had to careful what to say to me incase it triggered it even further! my parents felt helpless confused frustrated etc by it all trying to work out what caused it in first place! i felt like an evil monster devil wanted someone to rescue me from hurt and pain which my parents tried effortlessly to achieve but every time they did i'd push them away with my spells of anger rage etc my parents had reach the no return point despair getting depressed over what was hapopening through my behaviour they had to physically restrain me which wasn't the easiest task to do as strong as anything when in such a state i fight so much i tried to pretend convince myself it 'wasn't me' i was mentally 'unwell' at time but physical meltdowns behaviours mask the real things going on underneath as find hard to 'opne up and talk real' about how we are feeling inside instead 'bottle it up' as we feel a 'burden' to everyone in sight! have u tried going to your GP for emergency appointment and explaining what's been going on with your son? have u rang police ,mental health crisis team , social services? maybe you all need time and space out away from eachother how about ASD respite??? have u rang NAS for their help ,services or advice? has meds been discussed to calm him down when gets so far? what about having a calm down area to help him cool off think about what his done? does he get angry agressive violent challenging out the home? is there certain main triggers that set him off in situations? could he benefit from seeing a pyschologist/ ASD team? have you thought about going to a local parent ASD support group to gain advice support from others going though similiar things as yourself? i'd keep a log /record of all anger agressive violent meltdowns outbursts to see if anything can be changed improved and what solutions can be a possibilty how frequent they are how long they last for what behaviour is seen and whether it same all time etc ? as proof /evidence for professionals if need to look back ask you anything!!! ??? just an idea http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1350&a=3277 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp...390&a=15100 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp...541&a=15189 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=2427&a=8385 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp...searchstr=anger good luck fingers crossed i managed to control anger agressive outbursts now i think about control over situations ,emotions and feelings personally from first hand experience plus had growing maturing hormones everywhere doesn't help matters of complex choas and confusion in sufferers and family home life just adds to the mix ..... hope this helps you understand from 'our eyes' so difficult to know what to do for the best my parents were just the same fed up etc take care XKLX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 21, 2009 No, I work at a residential special school for children and young people with a range of severe special needs (probably the majority on the autistic spectrum) and complex medical needs, including those who experience psychotic episodes. We don't use ABA/Sonrise, etc...I too disagree with these approaches. I can see my clumsy use of the term behaviour 'modification' has perhaps confused things! Sorry about that Bid Good on you for working with these very challenging children and well done for turning their lives around. i would love to hear more about how you teach behavioural skills to the young people at your school. Alexis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 21, 2009 I totally agree, and I think many disabled indiividuals (not just the autistic disabled, but certainly some at the at the high functioning end of autism) are totally capable of exploiting peoples narrowed expectations of them. I also think outside factors like being enabled to be disabled can play a huge part in how disabled people (again, not just autistic) present themselves to the outside world. My father was one of those exploiters, im determined never to be like him. He was asperger/dyslexic (undiagnosed due to his age and denial). Being patronised can make things worse i agree which is what i think folk mean by "enabled to be disabled". He was a real bad bad but im guessing your username is a joke? something thats been bothering me for ages. Not talking about any professionals in particular, but I think all professionals are potentially victims of their own 'hype' and of believing their own hype and also run the risk of being quoted/taken out of context. Undoubtedly all professionals have a vested interest in keeping their specific area of 'expertise' an area of 'expertise' and promoting ideas of radical difference to justify that expertise. If they don't they're, erm, out of a job... That's something all parents, and all professionals, really do need to keep in mind - these peoples incomes. mortgages, lifestyle etc are all wholly dependant on the status of disabled people remaining disabled within our society. Wow that is a statement something i totally agree with, if autism didnt exist then this site and many others wouldnt either. Autism in particular seems to be a particularly fertile area for exploitation these days, as you've highlighted in your own posts with mention of certain behavioural management regimes. Self diagnosis (or casual diagnosis/projected casual diagnosis) is also rife at the moment, and a fair number of people are making exceedingly good livings by pandering to that trend. ive heard of folk calling it a fancy label to have, but they dont have a clue when they speak like that. im sure ive got undiagnosed OCD and dyspraxia but knowing why i do certain things is enough for me and unless a diagnosis of either would give me access to services im unable to currently use i dont see the point in pursuing them. I'm also completely of the opinion that parents - including your truly - and autistic people themselves can and do get it 'wrong', and I think the biggest part of getting it wrong is often assumption. I think the most damaging assumptions are those made about what people 'can't do', and that assumptions about what they 'can do' come a close second. Speculation about what they might be able to achieve and strategies and support mechanisms to enable exploration of those factors and ascertain their viability, are, IMO, the most beneficial. The parent at our group (manager of the place we were in) although had an autistic son couldn't understand how distressing 2 changes at once were for me. i ended up crying as she wagged her finger at me for mentioning the DDA. An official NAS staff person had negotiated and agreed our needs under the autism umbrella and she knew it could affect us. She was over her head and shouted at me and banned another new pub group member (who has no social group access now) when he mentioned the local papers. We had been attending there for a year, they knew we were going that night (somehow the leaders mobile number mysterious appeared in her diary even though she claimed not to have it!) They could have warned us, chose not to then blame us for reacting. I think I'll bow out of this thread for now; it seems to have wandered from the topic the OP initially raised, which described a boy abusing other family members and disrupting their home, and the need to explore solutions for those behaviours. BD Mods feel free to split this thread if you wish (something like "manipulation in autism" could be a good topic heading). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 21, 2009 OH heck cant be arsed getting into any of this. Thanks for letting me have a moan . ? What brought that on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiley1590 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 frustration and depression helplessness guilt blame she trying to shut it out getting too much pressure on top of her i CAN personally understand that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekster Report post Posted November 21, 2009 i used to agressive violent angry all frustration built up inside of me i lashed out to 'who you love the most you hurt the most' that so true i found so hard to 'break' this behaviour pattern i was put on meds from CAMHS anti-pyschotic risperdal (risperdone) didn't seem to do anything for me really touch me i still struggling i can also see it probably depressive state of mind too going on could this be the case with your son or anxiety based? but physical signs are anger etc ??? i was like this on risperadal as well. i went off it, went gluten, dairy, msg, aspartame and benzoate free and felt much better. The tablets have milk in (caused brain fog and severe confusion), the liquid has benzoic and tartaric acid in it. Both ingredients have been known to cause behavioural problems in certain individuals. i get so scared frightened after i done all this i just felt like 'another person' had taken over my body so a rage meltdown to try explain what going on Sounds familiar i used to say "this isnt me this is someone else, im not a monster" i couldn't work it out find the words normally blow up over 'silly stupid things' it sounds so weird strange i did it on my own really fought back from the anger side of me isn't easy to turn around and be different it hard to see hurt the ones that 'protect' you through the NT world! i threatened my mum on alot of occasions which i'm not proud of whatsoever!!! i won't TRY and excuse this appalling disgusting way of being towards anyone! i come up to her with a knife i felt like i had 'no control' over my mind body nothing it doesn't justify struggling to make sense of anything why i here with 'this thing' inside my head i ended up suicidal after these situations with police and ambulance being called by my mum and me being taken to A &E hosp as was SO depressed i couldn't answer anything properly i don't think i even got why i did it! it made me feel more bitter,guilty bad about myself and my life the situation just end up spiralling out of control lasting for hours i'd take any tablets out the cupboard (overdosing) as didn't know how to cope deal with appropriately it's so isolating having this there everyday makes you want to 'explode' at anyone in your way blame them yourself as just want to 'run away hide get rid of yourself' as struggle controlling thoughts,feelings/emotions all gets 'too much pressure' ive done similar things, not attacked people with a weapon but attacked people with my fists. Note that i would never do this when im off the gluten, dairy, benzoates, msg and aspartame they literally saved my sanity. i appeared to regress 3 months later so read up about possible deficiencies in autism and found i was lacking in loads of stuff. Milk thistle helps me regulate my body temperature (raynauds), b6 helps with meltdown like behaviours actually prevents them, b12 helps with cognitive issues and getting the words out, flax seed or fish oils are one size fits all recommendation for depression, cal, mag help with behaviour, 5htp for depression, taurine for anxiety, probiotics have also been known to help with depression. i am not exaggerating when i say that without changing my lifestyle completely i wouldnt be having this discussion with you, i would have been sectioned, in prison or dead. i was that out of control. i looked so crazy i just go into my own 'mad' state of zone and told my ages to calm down by that stage i need a sleep i so tired i worn myself out i'd be verbally shouting swearing i so felt torn like jekyll and hyde just wanted it to 'stop' but couldn't find out how powerless felt such a failure of acting this way! couldn't escape breathe felt like it overwhelming suffocating you literally unbearable to live with or be around my parents was like 'walking on eggshells' had to careful what to say to me in case it triggered it even further! my parents felt helpless confused frustrated etc by it all trying to work out what caused it in first place! i felt like an evil monster devil wanted someone to rescue me from hurt and pain which my parents tried effortlessly to achieve but every time they did i'd push them away with my spells of anger rage etc my parents had reach the no return point despair getting depressed over what was happening through my behaviour they had to physically restrain me which wasn't the easiest task to do as strong as anything when in such a state i fight so much i tried to pretend convince myself it 'wasn't me' i was mentally 'unwell' at time but physical meltdowns behaviours mask the real things going on underneath as find hard to 'open up and talk real' about how we are feeling inside instead 'bottle it up' as we feel a 'burden' to everyone in sight! Used to feel this way but now im looking after myself better i dont anymore. Also without changing my lifestyle i wouldnt be in my own place. have u tried going to your GP for emergency appointment and explaining what's been going on with your son? have u rang police, mental health crisis team, social services? maybe you all need time and space out away from each other how about ASD respite??? i used to go away for sometime to a residential holiday but i wont go there anymore. Avoid learning disability holiday scheme in Wadebridge. Dangerous people were allowed to go there and i cant trust them anymore. Also they blame HFAs on their behaviour. Little or no understanding of verbal autism/aspergers at all. have u rang NAS for their help, services or advice? Good idea, siblings support groups, social groups for your autistic son, courses to learn about what causes specific autistic behaviours. has meds been discussed to calm him down when gets so far? what about having a calm down area to help him cool off think about what his done? does he get angry aggressive violent challenging out the home? is there certain main triggers that set him off in situations? could he benefit from seeing a psychologist/ ASD team? have you thought about going to a local parent ASD support group to gain advice support from others going though similar things as yourself? i'd keep a log /record of all anger aggressive violent meltdowns outbursts to see if anything can be changed improved and what solutions can be a possibility how frequent they are how long they last for what behaviour is seen and whether it same all time etc ? as proof /evidence for professionals if need to look back ask you anything!!! ??? just an idea i would personally remove all the visible triggers then remove possible invisible triggers. http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1350&a=3277 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp...390&a=15100 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp...541&a=15189 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=2427&a=8385 http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp...searchstr=anger good luck fingers crossed i managed to control anger agressive outbursts now i think about control over situations ,emotions and feelings personally from first hand experience plus had growing maturing hormones everywhere doesn't help matters of complex choas and confusion in sufferers and family home life just adds to the mix ..... hope this helps you understand from 'our eyes' so difficult to know what to do for the best my parents were just the same fed up etc take care XKLX Puberty does tend to last longer in autistics than NTs ive noticed. 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JsMum Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Hi paula. My son is 12 and he can not cope or deal with others winding him up, he is terrible for retribution too, so if cant get the person back today he will one day or other even if its days later, so Im wondering is your DD close to her Dad, was this your sons way of getting back at your DD? just wondering, also why is your DD winding him up in the first place and getting such a reaction, because it is quite serious and there could be possible harm to others here, Im wondering if there is something really bothering your DD and doesnt know how to deal with it as she understands you already have a lot to deal with your Son, and so she feels confused and takes it out on your Son, maybe out of frustration she cant talk to you because of his needs coming first Im only trying to guess here, a person looking in, it may not be the case and your DD is just bored and looking for excitement, but I personally feel that this is a very risky game to play considering you have your own disabilities and then caring for your son. I know you probably do it already but what about a day in the week where you spend some time with your DD doing just girly stuff, and maybe give her an oportunity to maybe talk to you. I would also express to her how winding her Brother up is really causing additional worry for you as he then takes it out on his Dad. I think it is clear he requires more support for managing Anger I know others here on the forum have been to some Workshops here on AS and Anger, maybe something like this may help. I have a book Ive read would recommend this too and there is a website as well with the book. Beating Anger Mike Fisher My own son is having serious issues with Anger and physical violence and we are working very hard because at the moment he is only 5ft 2 but in a few years he will be 6ft 2 and then there is the added worry of serious harm. I think if you are genrally scared of him because of his size and strength and what possible harm he could do you need to share this with the proffessionals he is under because it will be almost impossible to impliment boundaries and consequences when you have a child that will use violence to get you/Dad to back down for a quiet life. I would look into requesting SS for a full Assessment of his needs. JsMumxxxx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
