ASD and gender identity

[Eccentric]

Has anyone heard of the theory that there may be a link between being autistic and having problems with gender identity?

 

By 'gender identity', I mean what is known variously as being gender dysphoric, having Gender Identitiy Disorder or being transsexual or transgendered. It means you strongly feel that you are the opposite gender to the one everyone else thinks you are: that you're physically male but consider yourself female, or the other way round. Contrary to popular belief, not all gender dysphoric people seek gender re-assignent treatment (the common name is 'sex change', but this term is now unacceptable). The various television documentaries on the subject that have been shown paint a rather misleading picture, because they sensationalise it - as do documentaries on autistic people.

 

In a Dutch survey, a high proportion of people with gender dysphoria were found to also have "autistic traits", and this was mentioned to me by a psychiatrist I saw a few years ago when I was seeking gender re-assigment treatment. (Since then, I've decided against this, finding it was more trouble than it was worth: I continue to live as male but privately I know I'm a woman.) I can't prove I'm a woman - I just know, intuitively - and have known this since I was a child - this is usual for transgendered people.

 

I've talked to lots of other transgendered people, and quite a lot of them have said they also have Aspergers. There's no evidence that one condition causes the other, it's just that both are often found in the same person.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Eccentric

[smileyK]

i think i'm Body dysphormic .... have body image issues that affect my life my mind alot!

[ScienceGeek]

I started transitioning from female to male back in 2004 and have been on hormones since 2006. I didn't get diagnosed with Asperger's until 2008. Going to a lot of FTM conferences and events I have come across a higher amount of people on the spectrum than you would normally expect. I watched a video on the NAS youtube channel which was rather interesting -

I have emailed the professor who did that talk and am awaiting a response from her. The findings are rather interesting as I was thinking about studying the same thing for my third year psychology project so it is good to see that someone is already studying this.

[Nickay12]

There is definitely a correlation between gender identity and autism.

I wouldn't class myself as having a gender identity problem in terms of "bi-gender" but I definitely have trouble identifying as a female. I have more masculine traits than female.. But I'm definitely not male either.

[Shnoing]

Yes and no. As far as "social gender stereotypes" go, I think that Auties/Aspies might be quite immune from them.

 

For example: I (male, for the record) have just bought a toy turtle for my (autie) son, which he chose in the shop, and the sales lady commented on those being mainly for girls (I had mentioned it being a gift). So I assume there must be a stereotype at work; still, to this day I haven't figured out why this turtle is for girls (it wears a camouflage outfit, and there were some pink ones dressed as princesses).

 

On the other hand, I've no doubts I'm male and nothing else.

[Special_talent123]

I came out october last year, I always thought something was different. I had trouble distinguishing my feelings towards people, and i also had questions if being abused changed my sexuality but ive thought long hard trying to figure out it, and i was bullied at school by a girl calling me a lesbian - she got me into trouble accusing me of kissing her when i didnt. i still have questions around it though. I think alot of it has come that i find it hard to trust men especially what has happened to me in life but i had a long thought this year and thought something was missing that i never felt before. the feelings i get around women but something missing when around men.

 

what i don't do is define me into a category; lesbian... i just say i in love women. lesbian is just a label that can be used in disadvantage such as bullying. the way u dress doesnt define u- just wear what your comfortable with. most of the time i like to wear, green blue and purple but not much of pink.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Special_talent123

[LancsLad]

Really interesting post. Feel a bit uncomfortable putting up a comment as a hetrosexual male, but felt I would like to make a contribution.

 

I have read a lot to say that Asperger's for example could be seen as a very male condition, and that a lot of the behaviour patterns associated with it are very masculine. This is a massive generalisation but like a lot of generalistations there may be some background truths in it which we are only starting to understand. My own question would be are there many if any instances of people with autism who have been born as males and have made the decision in their lives to move towards or become female?

 

I am also interested if my own perceptions about gender change are correct in that I feel from media influences that the more common pattern in society as a whole is for individuals born male to go through a process towards becoming female. I do not know if this is right or not, and that if it is a fact is this down to a natural disproportion of individuals feeling this way, or is it down to simple economic mobility and masculine bacgrounds tend to offer more rewards to place an individual in a position to do something about their natural feelings?

 

My last point is femenine culture more emotionally broad so that it has created an environment where being a lesbian is a more comfortable proposition than being a gay male. I raise this to question does someone who is born female and feels they should be male have a more tolerant environment by personally identifying with concepts of being lesbian than someone form an opposite position and as such there is a tendancy to reach a compromise position in life, even for a short period, rather than pursuing a line of action leading to gender reversal. Personally if there is this element in society is it a good thing or not. My gut instinct it might not be in the long run, though it might create a holding position whilst individuals come to their own conclusions on this vastly important issue in their lives. In respect to Asperger's as a developmental condition this might be a good thing. The only thing I really feel I can add to this discussion would be to say I think it took me untill I was in my mid twenties to become fully settled with my own sexuality, up to that point I simply followed expected convention and lived a life of a hetrosexual male. I have continued living this way but do know because of AS I may have taken considerably more time to reach a comfortable position than most people which in itself caused a level of anxiety in my life as i was in a relationship but did not know fully if it was the right thing to do. As such i have massive respect for people on the spectrum whos sexuality may lie outside hetrosexual norms. At another level to feel you are living with a body of the wrong gender must be a very challenging issue to work through and anyone who has done so, is doing so at the moment, and importanly who comes to the forum and offers their experience has my utmost respect.

 

Really good post Eccentric and one I will continue to follow with interest.

[Special_talent123]

it has been seen as a male condition lancs because it hasnt been widely recognised in girls because they seem to think we are different to males. but now more girls aree getting diagnosed.

[Special_talent123]

also i would say if your comfortable with your gender identity or fancing women, or fancing men then theres nothing wrong with that. if you feel comfortable that all that matters. im comfortable with realising my sexuality wasnt right and im comfortable with women i would say , but i feel rather awkward in relationship with a male

[chris54]

Going of at a tangent for a moment. As far as the law is concerned, historically, Queen Victoria could not perceive the idea of lesbianism which influenced the laws of that time. Being a male homosexual was illegal but the same was never true of lesbians.

 

Some cultures have no problem with the different "Types" of sexuality.(If that the right way to put it). (Almost felt a Frankie Howerd moment coming on)

 

I am what I am. As the song goes. And I cant perceive being any difference. I cannot realy understand what it is that make some people feel they are the wrong sex. But I try not to judge.

[Special_talent123]

laws have changed now but dont go o russia they will arrest people for being lgbt

[Nickay12]

Gender identity has very little to do with environment (very little as to go as far to say negligible).

Most children are gender curious, boys will play with dolls and girls will try to go to the toilet standing up..

But eventually once children become independent adults they start to make their own choices.

 

A great deal of "Male To Female" transitions are men coming from extremely masculine families.

It's in them, it's genetic..

 

If there is anything wrong with society it's not children being lead to the wrong gender e.g. parents buying their son a doll.

it's thinking that a young boy playing with "dolls" and dressing up in their "mothers clothes" is a disorder!

 

I too spent most of my life being forced into a female stereotype "pink clothes, long hair and dolls" but there was always

something in me that hated it, so when I become old enough to make my own decisions in life, I began to change

the clothes that I was wearing and became more outwardly masculine.

[darkshine]

When it comes to clothes and outward appearance it seems to me that it is generally easier and more acceptable (in society) for a girl/woman to dress in guys clothes than the other way around - like Chris saying about laws of old not applying lesbians...

 

I'm assuming that it is partly due to stereotypes, in terms of the last 60 years it has been increasingly acceptable for women to move towards a more masculine state (whether through work, attitude, dress, hobbies etc etc). I wouldn't say that this is comparable for men - yet - although there are signs of it as people who are different are slowly slowly being accepted by more and more people (we can only hope this continues), and of course there's some male fashion and "products" that would have been viewed as feminine (not very long ago!!) but its not the same thing is it? If a guy walked down the street in a dress I can guarantee that he's gonna be getting more (negative) attention than the women behind him dressed in jeans and sweatshirt.

 

After reading the original post - I had a look around and there's a fair bit of research out there about AS and gender identity/sexuality - but none of what I read said whether there was a higher or lower rate of this in the AS population (as opposed to "NT" percentages).

 

I struggle with identity on it's own, and I do wonder whether AS is a part of the reason for this - so it doesn't seem unlikely to me for there to be similar experiences in the case of gender identity. I don't know that for certain though

[Eccentric]

Thanks for your replies. Gender dysphoria, or being transgendered, is nothing to do with sexual orientation, nor is it linked to gender stereotyping. This is a very common misconception. Transgendered people might be attracted to males, females, both or neither, just as other people are: there's no connection. I'm bisexual (attracted to both men and women), but that's incidentally - nothing to do with my gender identity.

 

Lots of people have suggested that I consider myself female because I'm not a stereotypical male, but I know they're wrong. Whether you're stereotypical of one gender or the other is completely irrelevant. As I said in my OP, my conviction that I'm female, which I've had since I was about six, isn't based on any reasoning at all. I don't have to think about it - I just know. It's generally thought that the condition, like autism, is innate.

 

Nor is it anything to do with social conditioning. My brother, who is just a few years older than me, grew up in the same social environment as me, and he's never had any problems with his gender identity. Nor has anyone else in my family. But no one has ever put me under much pressure to be masculine - thank goodness - and it may be partly for this reason that I feel able to tolerate living as a male. I don't like it, but for me it's the best of the available options.

 

To try to put you in the picture of what it's like, imagine that, through a freak of nature, you looked exactly like a man (if you're a woman) or a woman (if you're a man) - even when undressed. So everyone mistook you for the wrong sex all the time, and you had to permanently pretend to be that sex because you knew if you told them the truth, no one would believe you - there'd just think you're mad. Think about how it would feel. You would especially feel uncomfortable about having the wrong genitals, and having to use the wrong toilet all the time. It creates problems with sexual relations as well. If I have a girlfriend, I want to relate to her as another woman, not as a man; and if I have a boyfriend, I want to be his girlfriend, not his gay lover. I hope I'm putting across the message clearly. And all this on top of being autistic.

 

If you want to find out more about this subject, there are plenty of websites about it. Just type in 'gender dysphoria'. And one last thing - don't confuse it with being a transvestite - men who like to cross-dress. There is some overlap between the two, but it's not the same thing - most transvestites identify themselves as male and are the first to admit they are only pretending to be women.

 

From that video clip posted by Science Geek, the evidence of a connection between ASD and gender dysphoria doesn't seem to be very strong. As far as I know, that one Dutch study is all that provides any concrete evidence.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Eccentric

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Not sure there is a correlation between gender identity and autism. I think people who have gender identity issues may well be confused, feel isolated/alone, become withdrawn, etc etc, i.e. have some traits which may well be confused with ASD traits.

[Lyndalou]

I desperately wanted to become a boy between the ages of 12 and 13. I truly believed that if I wanted it hard enough and prayed for it long enough, I would wake up one morning with a penis. I remember how disappointed I felt each day when I checked and didn't have one. Slowly over time I came to the conclusion that God wanted me to remain a girl even though I didn't want to be.

 

I didn't understand other girls and I felt a lot of them had 'special powers' I didn't have. I think my wish to become a boy was simply a longing for a simpler life. I felt that boys had it a lot easier and no-one expected so much of them and if I'm totally honest I still think that...

 

Anyway, I'm quite happy to be female now but I've always felt more at ease in the company of men.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Lyndalou

[Linnet]

There is definitely a correlation between gender identity and autism.

I wouldn't class myself as having a gender identity problem in terms of "bi-gender" but I definitely have trouble identifying as a female. I have more masculine traits than female.. But I'm definitely not male either.

 

I feel exactly the same. I also have trouble identifying myself as a female but am not male either.

[Sa Skimrande]

Okay, personal research on this situation; gender dysphoria I do agree AS features highly amongst those who identify with gender questions and so I feretted about in Google Scholar and came upon something that I believe Baron Cohen was suggesting, there maybe a genetic link between Autistic spectrum disorders and chromosomal abnormalities and I do understand talking with some parents regarding this issue, I was genuinely surprised to hear those diagnosed with AS often get genetically tested too and one of the parents I talked to revealed their AS son indeed has a chromosomal abnormality. Why I am talking chromosomal abnormalities is because one of them is called Klinefelter's syndrome which can manifest as mosaicism but there is another term commonly used and that is xxy, because those with it possess an extra x chromosome. Now further research on the net revealed a support group for xxy individuals with gender dysphoria and reading there, many of them also have ASD.

 

So my theory is there is a link between ASD, chromosomal abnormality and gender dysphoria and maybe Baron Cohen is onto something.

 

But of the aspies I converse with online elsewhere, most of them describe themselves as gender fluid in their sexual preferences, with a high proportion of cross dressers, homosexual, bisexual and transgendered.

 

And to think my personal research all started with trying to find out about the xanith in history as I had an idea.

[trekster]

"Gender recognition act" http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

 

i have a few trans autistic friends. i have a feeling one of them mentioned the link between transsexuality and autism especially FTM trans cases (caused by high testosterone in the womb).

 

There are 4 genders, the trans and intersex genders are just not properly recognised, this is wrong as many forms ask if you are male or female. If someone is neither what are they supposed to put? Some are online forms.

 

i always put n/a or neither because whichever gender i am is irrelevant to forums and many application forms. If it is ilegal to discriminate against someone due to their gender then suerly companies should recognise this and avoid asking 'male' or 'female' with regards to gender.

 

i agree with the term 'sex change' being renamed as something less offensive, it implies the person wasnt originally their previous gender in the 1st place.

 

No matter what gender or sexualiy someone is, whether i associate with them will depend on what common interests i have with them :-)

[Sa Skimrande]

As a reply to the above, I have quite a few transgender friends and one in particular, a pre op trans fell foul of US immigration who detained her at an airport because they believed she was impersonating a woman. UK documentation had her as one thing but what she had between her legs said different and US immigration does not recognise UK official documentation. As a result, she was detained in a male prison overnight, denied her medication and water and deported the next day. So it is now known the US officials recognise two genders only, that of male and female anything other or whatever means nothing they are not that advanced.

 

But the concept of femininity and masculinity is a complex one with very little research into, not saying there hasn't been research because there has, but it was the authority at the time that hindered research, that authority being the church.

 

But following on from the US attitude towards gender, it would be interesting to understand what the official UK attitude is towards it, are they like the Americans in that what someone ultimately is, is decided by what is between their legs ? Because all this understanding is pretty useless if it is in fact useless through saying one thing and believing another.

[Sa Skimrande]

Ah and so a visit to the doctor this past thursday, where I described my issues and was surprised to learn there are other adult AS patients also questioning what I am questioning, but they had not sought the karotype testing as I had, but there's time.

[Special_talent123]

i found an interesting link to gender dysphoria for my group http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

[trekster]

"

In 2004, the Gender Recognition Act was passed. It states that transsexuals and people with gender dysphoria can:

• marry in their preferred gender
  
• obtain legal documentation stating their preferred gender, including a new birth certificate and passport"
  

(From specialtalents link)

 

Good luck with the karyotype testing. if it helps i am having a different type of genetic testing my genome is being mapped

and tested for autism, HMS, AMD and possibly other genes.

 

Here's a link to a transgender support site in Wales

http://transgenderwa...om/about_us.htm

 

Also theres 'A Pride day' which in Bristol at least has a trans tent.

Edited July 10, 2012 by trekster

[Sa Skimrande]

Interesting of the linked websites they are talking gender reassignment, where my feelings are not that, what I am wondering about, is exactly what am I as infertile I don't fit into the traditional roles and this has got worse as I have got older, so I wonder what I am but finding the stuff on Klinefelters on PubMed opened a new door of inquiry, so the karotype testing is to ascertain if my condition is genetic and there natural in which case I then understand, but if not, then the situation is mental and I can sort that issue out via reprogramming, but my end result is I wish to know exactly what I am. In another culture males that cannot father children are seen as a separate gender, not something to be derided, but to be respected as a different gender. But the psychological affects on infertile males has largely not been researched in the West because it is thought only females suffer through infertility, but in India it has and it has been discovered infertility hits men very badly, where many start to question their gender and their existence in later life. The GP I saw on thursday was Indian and I referenced the Indian medical association research I had, but he was already aware of it and so sympathised, methinks I may have a GP that I can work with at last, as he did not talk down to me and was fairly impressed I had caused a stir at the hospital by telling the phlebotomists exactly what they were supposed to be doing, because three failures to get the blood in the right coloured tube forced me to research the whole process and I told them what to do at which they would only do on confirmation of the senior microbiologist, who confirmed I was correct. Asked was I a medical professional, you should have seen the look on their face when I said I was an unemployed mechanic, but I know how to dig to the root of a problem and I told them their problem was communication, specialists assuming and minions too scared to question specialists when they didn't understand. The GP has to write the response to the hospital, he said all he is going to say is the patient that knew so much correct information has AS and leave it at that.

[Special_talent123]

yeh there pride day same day in my area, someone told me that the pride where i live is rubbish, but i wanted to go to bristol but i cant go because im in london doing volunteering

[Mike_GX101]

If you feel strongly about this then I would recommend you see about getting a genetic test and finding out the truth.

 

In genetics there are more than just two genders. Have a test to be sure.

[Sa Skimrande]

So far and it has been six weeks, no results, even my GP thought that a bit slow, I am hoping they have not messed it up again, but if they had I suppose I would have been told sooner.

 

I am not looking to join 'clubs' for differences, 'pride' days I don't understand, what results I obtain are for my understanding, fact put to feelings and with hope I can move on, a box ticked off and more sure of myself in knowing what I am.

 

Knowing what I am and where I fit in is very important to me, because infertile I have missed out on much of what it means to exist in British society where emphasis and even services are aimed at couples and families. But I can't even date, I live alone, dating scares the hell out of me, well because the communicational thing for a start, someone takes an interest, I back off rapid or try to put myself in a bad light to them. It happened last night at dancing I detected uncomfortable panic in myself when a Spanish lady fourteen years my junior was very interested in how I had been and she was uncomfortably close, alarm bells were ringing in my mind. But I resist dating despite being very lonely because of, well, I need answers to explain issues, issues others in the past have been perhaps unthinkingly cruel about, but until I have reasons, I cannot move forward.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Sa Skimrande

[trekster]

There is definitely a correlation between gender identity and autism.

I wouldn't class myself as having a gender identity problem in terms of "bi-gender" but I definitely have trouble identifying as a female. I have more masculine traits than female.. But I'm definitely not male either.

 

i met someone who was gender neutral at a conference recently. Does this describe you? Many transgender folk strongly dislike the term 'gender identity syndrome' or 'gender dysphoria'