My mum embarrassed by his behaviour

[bluefish]

My mum is embaresed by e's behaviour. We had a great day out walking and all was good untill e stripped naked and jumped in the river! my mum says its not right and I should stop him. The thing is I know its feb and prob not the done thing to jump in the river but it makes him happy he does not feel the cold and it was sunny day, she was to be fair more bothered that he was squeaking like a mouse and people were staring( hee hee Its cold ,its feb and naked boy in river squeaking loudly like a mouse)but I felt hurt that grandma is embaressed! I think if he is happy and its not hurting anyone and its not in a social situation then why does he need him to conform? We walked about ten miles today(we live in the country) most of which e was bare foot and other walkers passed comment that he was bare foot.e had a great time but so sad that grandma thinks I should stop him being him. Am I wrong?

[Kinda]

Hi Bluefish

 

I agree with you and I'm sure your mum and grandma will come around eventually when they get over their conformed views. No damage, no problem and not illegal, just different and so what!

 

Good on him, the alternative of being withdrawn, unhappy etc, I know what I would prefer to see!

[Mumble]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. With the sensory issues I would have to say yes ... but. Just because he doesn't feel the cold doesn't meant that it isn't cold. There is a very significant difference. I don't have an issue with the naked thing if he's young and there's no one around (however, this needs to be handled carefully as he gets older - my brother was arrested for the same behaviour as an adult - it may have been innocent to him, but wasn't seen that way by a passer-by). However, speaking as someone who's done a lot of Kayaking and survival work in the past, I am very concerned - put simply, cold water kills, and kills quickly. It is very dangerous (as are the waterways of Britain at anytime of the year if you don't know what you are doing). If he likes playing in the water, you need to make sure it is safe and be aware of potential hidden dangers to him and to you, and he really should be wearing a wet-suit. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is dangerous and many people are unaware. This isn't an embarrassment issue, it is a safety issue. The same goes with walking bare foot - there could be anything in the undergrowth which he could cut his feet on and with the river water as well, you have to be aware of issues such as Weil's disease.

 

Sorry - that probably does sound harsh, but that was my immediate reaction on reading this. Sometimes there has to be conformity for a reason. ASD or not ASD, children have to be taught boundaries.

 

If you want to deal with the embarrassment issue, perhaps start with the squeaky mouse noises rather than issues that also have other implications.

[baddad]

Hi Bluefish

 

I'm a bit confused, because on the one hand you said it wasn't a social situation but on the other that there were people staring?

 

I don't know how old you son is, but that would be a factor I would consider too, along with other issues like safety (had there been a rusty bike at the bottom of the lake or even something as simple as a tree root you could have had an entirely different situation on your hands)

 

At some point, your child - if he is to have the mamimum opportunities socially - needs to learn what is and isn't socially acceptable... if he is of an age when stripping naked in public would not reasonably be socially acceptable behaviour, then he is of an age when that learning process should begin.... bearing in mind, it could be a very extended learning curve, the timing could already be 'critical'.

 

 

L&P

 

BD

[elun1]

<'> Not being judgemental - I'm sure O would never wear a stitch if he got his way! But your ds could have got really cold or hurt himself as he was barefoot. We are dealing with something similar at the moment. O will pull trousers and pants down to get a reaction - so how I'm dealing with this is to give zero attention - pull them up, ignore him and encourage any onlookers not to react. This is helping as it's the reaction he loves. O is nearly 7 now and I always make sure he has top and trousers on at all times in summer even as a lapse in the rules just means more tantrums in the long run as he doesn't like clothes and can't deal with compromise

hth, Elun x

[Cat]

One of the best piece's of advice that I was ever given was to remember that even if what they are doing looks cute and lovely when they are 4,5 or 6, will it still be seen as such when they are 14,15 and 16. I well remember crossing swords with my hubby after his daughter?s boyfriend thought it was funny to teach our then 6 year old son to nip women?s bottoms. He too thought that it was harmless fun but I could just imagine the reaction he would get if he did that when he was 16. I know that it is sometimes sad not to be able to let our children just run free but they won?t develop a sense of what is right or wrong unless we help them to do so. The longer you allow them to think that something is socially acceptable the harder it is for them to accept when you try to tell them that it is not.

 

I also agree with Mumble my son is almost 11 and still does not know when he is hot or when he is cold but that does not mean that he is not hot or cold. I still have to act as his thermostat control. My son also has little sense of danger and so allowing him to do something, like jumping into a river, which could be potentially very dangerous would be something that I would not encourage him to do.

 

Cat

[bluefish]

E is four and always safe as I am with him but he does seem to feel the seasons in a different way to the norm, I have stopped fighting to make him wear a coat and the reverse when its hot and he insists on being bundled up.this was never a question of if e was safe. I have an autistc child of course I make sure he is safe, it was a question of what is acceptable in terms of behaviour? I have no problem with him jumping in the river as I think whatever makes him happy! I always carry spare clothes. It was just a question of my mum being upset by his behavour.

[Bard]

I have an autistc child of course I make sure he is safe, it was a question of what is acceptable in terms of behaviour? I have no problem with him jumping in the river as I think whatever makes him happy!

 

Nothing he did was antisocial or distressing to other people. He caused no harm, so your mum needs help to accept him as he is, squeaky noises and unique behaviour and all.

However, I really think that letting him jump in a river in February is unwise, because of all the other points people have mentioned from hypothermia to Weil's disease to rusty wire and tin cans. It's dangerous.

 

It may make him happy, but I used to regard every birthday B made as a personal tribute to my parenting skills, and his robust physique and excellent immune system. He's made it to 13 so far, and is much better at risk assessment for himself than he was.

[bid]

Sorry, got to agree with Mumble, BD, Cat, etc.

 

At what age will you start teaching him it's unacceptable to strip off in public?

 

And sorry, but I can't believe your attitude to the safety issues

 

If I was your mum, I would have been upset too.

 

Bid

Edited February 12, 2008 by bid

[justamum]

Society says being butt naked in public is unacceptable, some may feel this is wrong. However if you don't teach him now it's not the correct thing to do then how in 10 years are you going explain that to the judge?

 

I am afraid I have to agree with others with the question safety of jumping into a freezing river with currents that you don't know are there in the middle of winter (sun or not) containing what ever debris society has chucked in it including chemicals and effluent is not the wisest thing to allow to happen. I should think people were staring because he was in the river and not the squealing. Sorry but I would have been horrified at yourself and your mother for allowing for the lads sake. I too live in the country, very rurally, but I certainly would not allow my children to jump in the burn let alone naked particularly this time of year.

[Deedee]

Hi bluefish does your mum read at all?? I found my poor mum really struggled to understand M when he was younger and often got cross and embarassed about his behaviour.Sooo I started her off slowly,with just a leaflet or two then a book,then most of my library lol..now finally at the age of 9 she seems to finally 'get it'. :rolleyes:and realises why he does what he does.

 

It'll take a lot of patience on your side and hers but you'll get there..my dad on the other hand is a total head in the sand fingers in the ears type !!

[KarenT]

I see two elements to this discussion.

 

Your son does need to learn that certain behaviours which are acceptable in a toddler will not be as he grows older. Rules change depending on age and circumstances. I recently went on a course which included a speaker who taught ASD at University level and was involved with a college for young adults with AS. She gave accounts of several of their young people with extreme social problems because they'd never been told that their behaviour as they were growing up was no longer cute - habits became ingrained. A three year old stroking an adult's hair seems sweet but it's going to get you into trouble if you're doing it on the bus when you're twenty. Another was a young man in his early twenties who'd never been stopped dressing up in his mother's shoes - he's been in court several times for stopping young women in public places to ask if he could try on their high heels. I could go on.

 

So yes, I'd agree that your son's behaviour at his age and with other people around (albeit sporadically) was inappropriate and he should be helped to understand that.

 

The other point is your mum's reaction. I'd be disappointed if she was simply embarrassed and not accepting your son as he is, yelling and being happy with who he is. However she may have been reacting out of concern for him as others have said on this thread.

 

Karen

x

[Kinda]

I would have to agree with the safety issues raised by others, of course these are paramount.

[bluefish]

Thank you for all your replies. I would like to make it clear that the river e jumped in is clean, no rusty bikes or other nasty things no currents no hidden dangers.We are lucky to live in an area where all our kids swim in the river. This is a place e plays all the time and swims in summer. I am pleased so many of you were concerned but please give me some credit as a mother I am not stupid and am with him in my wellies! Yes it is feb and yes the water was cold.And no its not ideal that he wants to play in the river, BUT this post was about his behaviour, the squeaking and the getting undressed in public.

[bid]

My mum is embaresed by e's behaviour. We had a great day out walking and all was good untill e stripped naked and jumped in the river! my mum says its not right and I should stop him. The thing is I know its feb and prob not the done thing to jump in the river but it makes him happy he does not feel the cold and it was sunny day, she was to be fair more bothered that he was squeaking like a mouse and people were staring( hee hee Its cold ,its feb and naked boy in river squeaking loudly like a mouse)but I felt hurt that grandma is embaressed! I think if he is happy and its not hurting anyone and its not in a social situation then why does he need him to conform? We walked about ten miles today(we live in the country) most of which e was bare foot and other walkers passed comment that he was bare foot.e had a great time but so sad that grandma thinks I should stop him being him. Am I wrong?

 

In your original post you ask 'Am I wrong'.

 

You have asked the question, and I think most people have expressed the opinion that they think you are wrong.

 

Bid

[darky]

Ok, forgetting the swim in the river, any reaction to noises is OTT, most 4yr olds make noises one with AS more so, but that is not a big deal. As for stripping off in public, well I can understand a reaction to that. It is a sad fact of life that children can't be children anymore, and I remember many days, as a child running about in the garden or on the beach with no clothes on. However, seeing in the news perverted men taking pictures of nude children in public places and sharing them on internet for their own sick gratification was enough for ME to ensure my daughter does not strip off in public what ever her age. I think any reaction from any bystanders including your mum, in my opinion was concern. Not just because of the cold, but for what nasties there could be lurking about. It makes ME shudder now whatever time of the year to see children with no clothes on just because you don't know who is watching.

[Mumble]

I'm sorry, Bluefish, but I have to agree with Bid (and I still have concerns about the river despite you saying it is clean - this can lead to a false assumption of safety). You asked if you were wrong, and I stated my opinion, and gave reasons for it, that, yes, I thought you were 'wrong' (I'm not sure wrong is the best word). Obviously we weren't there, and I am only going on the description you have given. I was however quite taken aback by your response.

 

This does lead to a bigger debate over what's acceptable and what should be allowed. You say that:

he wants to play in the river

I'm just not convinced that 'want' is enough legitimisation, and I don't think this is an ASD/NT issue. ANY child needs boundaries and needs an adult figure to guide them through learning what is safe and acceptable. For autistic children, as I think BD was saying, this learning may take longer and so needs to be even more rigorously applied. Changing rules/routine without proper 'reason' (in the eyes of the person affected) is difficult. I really think you are better off instilling appropriate behaviour from the outset, then there is no need to change as he gets older. I have seen for myself the devastating effects of an autistic adult not being given those boundaries/understandings as a child, and it is from this viewpoint that I am approaching this.

[bluefish]

I'm sorry, Bluefish, but I have to agree with Bid (and I still have concerns about the river despite you saying it is clean - this can lead to a false assumption of safety). You asked if you were wrong, and I stated my opinion, and gave reasons for it, that, yes, I thought you were 'wrong' (I'm not sure wrong is the best word). Obviously we weren't there, and I am only going on the description you have given. I was however quite taken aback by your response.

 

This does lead to a bigger debate over what's acceptable and what should be allowed. You say that:

 

I'm just not convinced that 'want' is enough legitimisation, and I don't think this is an ASD/NT issue. ANY child needs boundaries and needs an adult figure to guide them through learning what is safe and acceptable. For autistic children, as I think BD was saying, this learning may take longer and so needs to be even more rigorously applied. Changing rules/routine without proper 'reason' (in the eyes of the person affected) is difficult. I really think you are better off instilling appropriate behaviour from the outset, then there is no need to change as he gets older. I have seen for myself the devastating effects of an autistic adult not being given those boundaries/understandings as a child, and it is from this viewpoint that I am approaching this.

[Frangipani]

Thank you for all your replies. I would like to make it clear that the river e jumped in is clean, no rusty bikes or other nasty things no currents no hidden dangers.We are lucky to live in an area where all our kids swim in the river. This is a place e plays all the time and swims in summer. I am pleased so many of you were concerned but please give me some credit as a mother I am not stupid and am with him in my wellies! Yes it is feb and yes the water was cold.And no its not ideal that he wants to play in the river, BUT this post was about his behaviour, the squeaking and the getting undressed in public.

 

<'> <'> <'>

Parenting is a giant learning curb that I failed at graciously. Motherhood did not come naturally to me I know I was judged for my parenting skills and free spirit, but we were all kids once we need to loosen up guys - don't be so rigid. Its so easy to speculate but it made me tearful reading some of your replies - don't forget to have fun.

 

Love Fran <'>

[Mumble]

Its so easy to speculate but it made me tearful reading some of your replies - don't forget to have fun.

I don't understand why it made you upset Frang. I'm sorry, I didn't want to do that.

 

As far as I'm concerned, there's fun, there's danger. there's acceptable and there's unacceptable. Unfortunately the boundaries between these are not clear cut and change with context and circumstances. All I've been trying to say is that children (ANY child) needs guidance to understand these.

[bid]

<'> <'> <'>

Parenting is a giant learning curb that I failed at graciously. Motherhood did not come naturally to me I know I was judged for my parenting skills and free spirit, but we were all kids once we need to loosen up guys - don't be so rigid. Its so easy to speculate but it made me tearful reading some of your replies - don't forget to have fun.

 

Love Fran <'>

 

Sorry, Fran, but you seem to have missed the point?

 

If care staff, either from a school or a nursery, allowed a 4 year old autistic child (any child) to strip off, jump in a river and walk nearly 10 miles barefoot, they would be probably be sacked for negligence.

 

This is nothing about 'free spirits' and 'fun', it's about potentially dangerous behaviour.

 

Bluefish asked our opinion...

 

Bid

Edited February 13, 2008 by bid

[baddad]

<'> <'> <'>

Parenting is a giant learning curb that I failed at graciously. Motherhood did not come naturally to me I know I was judged for my parenting skills and free spirit, but we were all kids once we need to loosen up guys - don't be so rigid. Its so easy to speculate but it made me tearful reading some of your replies - don't forget to have fun.

 

Love Fran <'>

 

Hi frangi/all -

 

Just to quickly reassure bluefish and others... I for one (and i'm fairly sure i'd be safe to speak for others who have responded) implied no judgement on bluefish's parenting skills, and i certainly wouldn't want to give the impression that 4 year old's should be denied their right to enjoy all of the freedom's being that age allows...

I was responding purely to the specific scenario outlined, in response to bluebird's request for opinions.

Getting naked and splashing about in water is definitely a freedom all kids should enjoy, I just think the bath or a paddling pool in the back garden in the company of their familes is the best place for that... That's not (I hope) because I'm a prude, nor a response to the awful media fearmongering that goes on these days (but having said that, i think with the advent of digital cameras and the internet darky does, sadly, raise a valid point), but purely and simply an acceptance that the usual social rules for a child of this age would be a 'borderline' call at best.

Given the heightened 'rote learning' issues that surround autism, coupled with sensory and awareness issues that might compound those problems, I strongly believe (in common with just about every professional I can think of) that our children need much more guidence and support in all aspects of social interaction than other children. That's not a 'denial' of their problems or 'normalisation', it's a completely empowering attitude to help children toward the point where they can make informed choices for themselves about the compromises they WILL have to make, whether we as parents like it or not.

 

Hope that clarifies things and apologies IF any offense was taken, bluefish <'>

 

 

L&P

 

BD

[Frangipani]

I don't understand why it made you upset Frang. I'm sorry, I didn't want to do that.

 

As far as I'm concerned, there's fun, there's danger. there's acceptable and there's unacceptable. Unfortunately the boundaries between these are not clear cut and change with context and circumstances. All I've been trying to say is that children (ANY child) needs guidance to understand these.

 

Mumble <'> it seemed that people assumed it was dangerous etc etc without considering Bluefish knows the abc's of safety. She knows the area - that you didn't know - easy mistake. I know every waterway and tide in Sydney like the back of my hand iyswim thats what people overlooked.

 

Many people looked at my son funny too Bluefish, he is 20 and still makes that squeak without his meds I know how much it hurts to see his schoolmates and cousins look at him but I haven't spoken to an ex SIL who kept her kids away because his dad refused to give his meds on an access visit so they were so embarrassed. iykwim their loss. They always blamed my parenting skills regardless of the fact I did my homework on parenting 1000% I was dedicated Asd/add didn't exist in their eyes then later confessed oh that was their brother as a child/still. No apology for the way they made me feel.

 

Fran <'>

Edited February 13, 2008 by Frangipani

[bluefish]

Hi I shall be careful in future how I phrase my posts! Please let me make it VERY clear we walked ten miles but e was only bare foot after the river NOT for ten miles. I think there have been lots of valid and interesting opinions. We all have very different ways of bringing up our kids. I dont want to start defending myself or my parenting. I did not mean this post to end up being about safety etc. I ,as we all do adore my child and do what I think is best. Origionally I was really asking "am I wrong" to be upset by my mum. It is hard to see yesterdays situation without having been here I perhaps was not as accurate as I should have been, if I had given more detail maybe it would have been eaiser to picture the scene. But as I say I dont want to start having to go into great detail to try and show you I am not totally irrisponsible. But no offence taken Its always interessting to hear what people think.

 

thanks

[morgan and alexandra]

Hi Bluefish

Have just read this thread and wanted to say I have dealt with most of my family being this way with DD. She still screeches and yelps,usually in the most public places when she is stressed and if other family members can't deal with it then so be it. It's their loss that they can't see what a beautiful, intelligent and happy little girl we have.

 

I agree with what some people have said on here but only safety wise and know that as a mum you are doing the best you can. My daughter doesn't strip anymore but doesn't feel the cold and I'm always getting odd looks as she WILL NOT wear a coat.

 

Helen

[Sallya]

Hi Blue fish,

have you talked to your mum about why she was upset?

what did she say?

I think perhaps it could be a catch 22 situation- he was squealing because he was naked in a river in February- maybe if he had been squealing because for example; he had been splashing in a puddle, with his clothes on -she wouldn't have been embarrassed?

s

xxx

[Kinda]

Bluefish

 

We are all different and have differing views which can be a very positive trait and makes life interesting. So it would seem that members have differing views and so for me its your judgement call and you know your son best.

 

You told me he was happy and for me that counts for a lot and this far outways the other issues.

 

Take care.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Kinda

[bid]

Apologies, Bluefish, for being too Aspie-datious and single-minded

 

Bid

[Corcaigh]

The naked issue: it's the only one I want to address telling my experience. We were always very liberal with my son about his body, like, for instance, nothing to be ashamed with being naked, he's only a little kid etc. Then, when he turned 7/8 he went through a phase when he thought that pulling down his pants (and underpants) in public was an extremely funny thing to do. We then started discouraging this behaviour very strongly but, unfortunately, we could not control him at school. At that stage he had a VERY prudish resource teacher who immediately gave the behaviour a sexual connotation (rather than an innocent attention seeking one, as it was) and,instead of dealing with it, he made the principal, who was an ignorant *beep* <insert very rude term here>, call the social services. Fortunately the social worker who came to visit us had a brain, and dismissed the whole case as the hysteria of a young teacher and the arrogance of an insensitive principal.

Who remembers my story (sorry i don't post much here but I read very regularly, believe me ;-)), might also remember that we later changed school, and with the right approach, that attention seeking behaviour also disappeared. Of course now my son is 12 and will never dream of doing something like that in public (especially at the moment: he has an awful crush on a girl in his class and he's desperately trying to attract her attention by looking cool!).

 

I just wanted to post my story to say: there are people who understand that he's only a cute boy just acting out, but other people might put you (and your child) in trouble for the innocent behaviour.

 

Unfortunately we live in a society that often don't understand.

 

My two cents (I'm in the euro zone

 

Martina

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

i think this is all a balance between happy kids and social propriety

and if we want to keep our kids safe from others and investigations we have to go with the society way

my dd does not feel the cold and i often give in and let her wear the light clothes, but all ( family) the rest of them are like that

but the looks i get covered in layers when she is not

 

 

i think most here were trying to see it from both sides

and that can cause issue

but i personally never ever let my kids out wtihout any clothes

but that is me, not you or bid or bd

and Corcaigh story is very scary

<'>

[poppy]

To the point:of course youre not wrong to be upset by your Mum.Unfortuately thats what some mums do well.

Mine told me years ago when my 13 year old aspie was about 7 that they used to put children like that in a home-ie lock them away from the normal people. So you can understand i've never felt the same about her since!!

Chin up and do your best your way .

[BusyLizzie100]

e had a great time but so sad that grandma thinks I should stop him being him. Am I wrong?

 

Bluefish - <'> <'> <'>

It would make me feel very sad to think that my boys' grandma was embarrassed by them, especially if they were having a great time and not upsetting anyone. It's so rare that they are able to enjoy themselves wholeheartedly.

 

I take on board all the comments that people have made, and they are all very sensible. I also think that with kids like ours we are probably making risk assessments all the time, probably continuously, and I'm in no position to criticise without knowing all the facts.

 

 

Keep smiling

Lizzie xx

Edited February 13, 2008 by baddad

[Flora]

On the subject of kids who strip: Bill used to strip off as soon as we got through the door, until he was about 5 he never wore clothes in the house. However, I didn't really have to stop him from doing this because by the time he was 7 he'd developed such a horror of anyone seeing any part of his naked body that he stopped doing it... over night!

 

I'm not even allowed to say the word 'bottom' to him now, he's so against body parts... which now when I come to really think about it is just as unhealthy as the streakers (but probably far more socially acceptable!

 

this is my long winded way of reassuring that SOME of them do grow out of it without too much hassle. We are only left with the reverse temperature problem... coats and parkers with the hood up in the summer, windows open and t-shirts in the winter!

 

Flora

[bluefish]

Thanks for all of the comments. Since this post I have had a long, honest and open chat with my mum about her embarresment and although it was hard to hear some of her problems regarding e in public It did us the world of good.

[baddad]

Thanks for all of the comments. Since this post I have had a long, honest and open chat with my mum about her embarresment and although it was hard to hear some of her problems regarding e in public It did us the world of good.

 

 

every cloud, eh? <'>

 

L&P

 

BD

[puffin]

My DD was exactly the same a 4 - but with a little gentle guidance she has learned what is appropriate in public and private are not necesarily the same things. When she was younger she used to strip off- wehreas now she accepts she must wear clothes in public - however despite the fact we are living in Scandinavia she was not yet worn her winter coat this winter. I used to have endless discussions with people who wanted her to wear coats and hats - but now that she's 12 I let her judge for herself although I do make the odd "suggestion". She went on a whole day skking last week without a coat, hat or skiing trousers

 

She does not feel the cold either - and in fact if the weather is what we would regard as comfortably warm - she tends to come out in a heat rash and gets dry cracked skin - so colder is better. As a todler she used to run cold water baths and sometimes took her potty out in the snow. It is a family tradition (apart from me of course) to swim in the lake as soon as the ice melts - although the water is very cold - often with ice still floating - as long as an adult is supervising it is not so dangerous