Disapplied from maths SAT

[Flora]

I had a call from Ben's primary school to go in and see them when I went to pick him up. They are doing their SATs next week and his teacher and the HT/SENCo have decided to disapply him from the maths test because he isn't capable of doing it. In order for him not feel different he is going to be given a sheet of simple sums to do while the others are doing the actual maths paper.

 

Is this a normal thing to do if a child is struggling to that extent? Would it not be better for him to sit the paper and fail it so that they can see how much he's struggling or would that be a pointless exercise? And if a child is so far behind in a subject that they are disapplied from sitting the test then should they have a statement?

 

Flora

[ScienceGeek]

I'm not sure if that is a normal thing to do if a child is struggling that much. My cousin with SEN was disapplied for maths SATS as well, her parents wanted her to do them so that they would know the extent of how behind she was, the school wouldn't allow it. They finally got it out of them the real reason was because it would mess up their figures for the league tables. Not saying that this is the reason in this situation just that it has been known to happen.

[Suze]

My boy was working at a very low level during his key stage 2 sats...but he had a staement and was given a scribe, and reader etc,..........something tells me that perhaps doing it this way may work in the schools favour perhaps.........if they are expecting him to score low, then maybe it suits them for him not to sit in, then the league table looks good, I could be wrong........just a thought , best wishes suzex

[rach04]

j is only doing his science one and they are undecided about his english one. Its all todo with there marks and how the school will rate!! Im not really that bothered as hes stressed enough with the maybe 2 and i cant see him getting far in the science and english. Science is ok in theory but he just cant get it on to paper.

[Tally]

Maybe you could ask if he can sit a past paper and have it marked internally, just so that you and the staff can assess where exactly he is at. They may be able to do this without using the exam anyway.

[darky]

Frankly I wish my younger two were disaplied from SAT tests, sorry!! My son is in year 6 and doing his SAT next week and he is strung out. I am not surprised since he has been doing practice SAT tests since January and he has been sent home with some. (which I have sent back not completed) IF I thought the SAT tests benefitted the children in any way, I would not object, but seeing as at his last school he *supposedly* scored average, which then put him in a top set for months where he became highly stressed and anxious (and the results did not reflect his ability, draw your own conclusions) I think that pupils progress is best assessed on the work they do through out the year. A SAT test can easily give a false impression on a child good or bad, and that just means the child can suffer as a result IN MY OPINION.

 

You have to feel sorry for teachers and children. The teachers are under pressure for their children to perform, and the children are stressed out!!

[Flora]

His CT has assessed him and she reckons he is a 2a for maths. He is still going to be doing the English and Science tests it's just the maths he's disapplied from. I reckon you guys are right and that it is more to do with the school performance results than anything. The official reason is that they can't see the point because they know under test conditions he won't be able to do it. He can only score at a 2a with 1-1 input from his teacher.

 

I'm not too bothered about him doing the test. I did ask them if it would go down on his school records the reason for his disapplication and they said it would. Also they are going to get a maths teacher over from the secondary school he's transferring to, to come and observe him in a maths lesson (not sure why but it sounds like a reasonable idea).

 

Flora

[Enid]

It is def to do with school results, no question. Enid

[Kazzen161]

If a child is disapplied, their (non) results do not affect the school's overall SATs results. If a child does not do well (or is away, ill) then it brings down the school's results. In a small school it can have a big effect on the overall results.

 

You need to be reassured however that your child has made adequate progress each year.

[Bard]

It is def to do with school results, no question. Enid

 

I don't know Ben at all, so I can't offer an opinion as to why, but a couple of years ago, despite my best efforts, I had two lads in tears over their written English papers.

Stuff the statistics, I'd have paid cash for them to be disapplied and spared the distress and the in-their-face realisation that they were failing in a public arena. The rules on who can be disapplied are followed carefully in my school, so although they were very weak, they weren't weak enough to fit the government's criteria.

I'm hoping for a parental uprising to ban formal, timed tests with unseen content in primary schools.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Bard

[Kathryn]

My son is also doing year 6 sats next week. He's OK about them and his teacher is playing them down a lot so I'm not too worried about that aspect of it. But it seems to me that it makes the year so dull - and sets up an obssession with graded results when children should be enjoying learning. My son has been told from the beginning of the year he's scoring level 5 in English so he doesn't need to worry. I'm glad he's in this comfortable position, but where's the incentive to learn anything new? I don't feel he's really been stretched or challenged in a good way - do the sats not stunt the creativity of teachers?

 

K x

[purplehaze]

Hello Flora, schools can disapply children from SATS if they are below the lowest level and yes i'm sure some schools do it because of their marks and the pressure they face. It is normal to give simple tests/papers/work to children who have been opted out. My son has just finished his SATS yr9 and had the option to opt out of English because he is below the level but the school decided to let him do all of the tests to give him practice for GCSE's. It has been a stressful week, although the English SATS day was more positive than the rest. My son does have a statement and also had LSA support and the option of doing his tests in another room. If your son is a few levels behind and the gap isn't growing it may suggest that a statement is needed, I think it is a question you should ask.

 

Good luck for next week. X

[Kathrynh]

I totally agree with you Bard. Sats are about testing teachers not children and yet the children are put under a great deal of stress to perform well by teachers who are put under the stress of making the children do these tests even though they do not agree with them. Because of league tables, a large part of Year 6 is about preparing for sats and gets in the way of teaching the children. Real education is put on hold for the year. And who gets the blame for this? Teachers! Even though we have no choice in the matter. How about ocassionally placing the blame on the government instead? I know my son will never have to face sats because he has severe learning difficulties and this is one of the few things I can be grateful for. If a child is performing below the level of the tests it is totally unfair to make that child sit through a 45 minute test with a paper full of questions that he/she cannot do. How totally demoralising is that? Much better to disapply. And no it does not improve the schools results. The child still counts on the percentages as not having achieved the expected level 4.

[KateBall]

I totally agree with you Bard. Sats are about testing teachers not children and yet the children are put under a great deal of stress to perform well by teachers who are put under the stress of making the children do these tests even though they do not agree with them. Because of league tables, a large part of Year 6 is about preparing for sats and gets in the way of teaching the children. Real education is put on hold for the year. And who gets the blame for this? Teachers! Even though we have no choice in the matter. How about ocassionally placing the blame on the government instead? I know my son will never have to face sats because he has severe learning difficulties and this is one of the few things I can be grateful for. If a child is performing below the level of the tests it is totally unfair to make that child sit through a 45 minute test with a paper full of questions that he/she cannot do. How totally demoralising is that? Much better to disapply. And no it does not improve the schools results. The child still counts on the percentages as not having achieved the expected level 4.

 

But isn't it also demoralising for the child to see the others taking SATS and to realise that he/she isn't good enough to do so? That's why I wondered whether my ds should do a paper from earlier years so that he thinks he is doing something similar. However his school don't want him to do that even in case he disturbs the rest of the class whilst doing it - as he would probably not take it too seriously. Also now I'm not so sure as I don't want him to be stressed about doing it if he doesn't need to be. I suppose its about choosing whatever is the lesser evil??

[Bard]

But isn't it also demoralising for the child to see the others taking SATS and to realise that he/she isn't good enough to do so? That's why I wondered whether my ds should do a paper from earlier years so that he thinks he is doing something similar. However his school don't want him to do that even in case he disturbs the rest of the class whilst doing it - as he would probably not take it too seriously. Also now I'm not so sure as I don't want him to be stressed about doing it if he doesn't need to be. I suppose its about choosing whatever is the lesser evil??

 

Exactly. It is demoralising to know that whilst others are being given level 4a and 5c in their class work, you are getting a 2b. Or less.

This is what assessment for learning is, in order for the children to self-assess, they have to know what the criteria are for the different levels. So able children in Y4 have a list in the front of their literacy books that gives them 10 points that level 3 writing should cover. And when they've finished their work, they check the list again to see if they've covered the points.

In year 6, it's the level 4 or 5 points. Then I mark it and we work on whether we agree with their grade or not, and why.

 

It's the same in maths, we set across the year group so that you are working with others that are similar ability, although each group has 20 in it so the spread is still wide. The children seem to enjoy achieving within the set.

 

If you want to work through some past papers at home, then I'm sure you could ask the school to give you photocopies.

You would need to ask yourself why you are doing it, and be happy with the answers. If he takes the tests in school, maybe they could support him in another room, with 1:1. But if he's not likely to take it seriously, he's perhaps not bothered or worried about the fact that he's not doing what the others are. he sounds a happy chap!

I have 5 children in my class of 8 year olds who are still working on spelling their reception words and have reading ages of under 5. I have 10 that are reading and writing at level 3, which is average for a 9 year old.

They will all be tested as a cohort.

Edited May 10, 2008 by Bard

[Flora]

Hi all, thanks for the responses.

 

I'm quite comfortable with Ben not doing this test. The teachers haven't even told the kids that it's SATs week next week (although they've been doing lots of practice at school) so they are all blissfully unaware anyway and I haven't mentioned it at home. The fact that he is going to sit in the same place as the other kids but do a different paper means that he won't feel singled out or different.

 

I've often been at loggaheads with this school (mainly when Bill used to go to there) but must say I'm in complete agreement over their attitude towards SATs and homework etc. The HT/SENCo and CT don't think they should be having homework and as a result they pay lip service to it. Also they are of the same mind as Bard about the SATs in that it is gratuitous pressure on the kids in order to test the teachers and school.

 

Ben is not in the least bit perturbed by his performance in maths etc. In his mind he is a genious who can't perform because of dyslexica and dyscalculia but tries very hard to do his best (this is what he tells anyone who queries it!). I don't think he suffers from self esteem problems or feels demoralised, although I know he does get frustrated now and again.

 

Flora

[julieann]

Hi Flora,

 

If a pupil is below level 3 they can be disapplied from SATS. The year 9 pupil I support at secondary school has just had to take her KS3 SATS because she is above level 3. The distress it put her through was heartbreaking. At one point she said to me " You wouldn't ask someone to write a rap song if they didn't understand rap music, why are you doing this to me?"

Julieann

[Mumble]

Bit short notice, I'm afraid, but you might be interested in Panorama tonight (Monday) on BBC1 at 8:30pm - it's going to cover many of the issues raised here.

[poppy]

My son (aspergers) has been disapplied from the year 9 sats that took place last week and i and he are very relieved.

He failed the mocks in english and science and didnt do too well in maths which is his fav subject apart from ict.

They put so much presure on him in the couple of weeks after that we are still trying to get him back into school full time,after becoming depressed and wanting to kill himself.So the senco said he could be disaplied and i told her i really didnt care as i wouldnt be sending him into school when they took place.

Sats arent needed-my 2 older daughters did fine without them and one is now a school teacher!!!!

[Bard]

What's the point of being a professional, with all the bits of paper and stuff, if they don't let you say 'This individual will be teacher-assessed and does not have to take part in SATS timed, stressful, disheartening SATS'

Then if asked, I could produce evidence over the year that would back up my professional judgement.

If someone is functioning academically at say, a level 2, or a low 3, then what is the point of making them sit an exam at levels 5-7?

That's like me taking a Spanish GCSE. Pointless. I don't have the knowledge or the understanding to make it a valuable exercise.

[Kathryn]

I gather in Scotland there is no equivalent of Sats and it's mainly teacher assessment at the lower levels - or at least the child is tested when the teacher thinks they are ready. That's what I've read anyway - correct me if I'm wrong on this, someone?

 

My son wanted to watch the Panorama programme but as he's right in the middle of his Sats I didn't think it would be a good idea.

 

<'> <'> to any families undergoing year 6 sats this week.

 

K x

[Mumble]

I gather in Scotland there is no equivalent of Sats

They've never done them

 

or at least the child is tested when the teacher thinks they are ready.

Well that's the model we're working towards here, but as the Panorama programme shows, there are many issues here too.

 

My son wanted to watch the Panorama programme but as he's right in the middle of his Sats I didn't think it would be a good idea.

It'll be on BBC iplayer for 7 days or 30 if you download - well worth watching I think

[caren]

My DS3 has been told since jan he was'nt sitting any bar science on monday his teacher informed me he was going to get him to sit all BUT if they can't understand his writing as long as DS3 tells them what he's put the teacher will then write it on the paper what it really says , No dx for DS3 but re-applying for a statement and i think he will fail his SATS , its to much pressure for kids IMO and they really don't need it