Message from Baroness Mary Warnock

[nellie]

I received information from the NAS this morning and it included the following from Baroness Mary Warnock.

 

 

Message from Baroness Mary Warnock

 

Children with autism, and especially those with disabilities that fall at the moderate end of the autistic spectrum, are among the worst served by the current system of Special Education. The presumption of this system is that all, or nearly all, children with SEN will be educated in mainstream schools with an appropriate degree of additional help. As children with Aspergers or related conditions do not as a rule have plainly visible disabilities, and because many of them are of high ability, at least in some school subjects, their needs may be overlooked. Some of them may have managed fairly well at primary school, where schools are mostly small and where class teachers get to know their pupils very well, but these pupils find that when they make the transition to a large secondary school they are at sea.

 

Your own figures show that the exclusion rate among autistic children with high ability is as high as 29% compared the average of 2.1%. This alone shows that inclusion is not working.

 

Those who argue that all children whatever their disabilities have a right to attend mainstream school (and this right is now incorporated, with some exceptions, in the 2002 Education Act) are consumed by a passion for bringing to an end discrimination against the Disabled in society and in the workplace. They forget schools are different from society, in having one clear aim, namely education; if children cannot learn in the environment of a mainstream school they are being deprived of the right that has been theirs since the 1970?s. They forget, too, that disability or SEN is not one homogeneous concept. The disability of some children consists precisely in their inability to relate to other people without specific one-to-one help, and their inability to process and make sense of a constantly changing, crowded, noisy environment such as that provided by a large school.

 

What such children need above all is a small school within which they can begin to feel familiar with their surroundings and the people who will teach them, where they will not be bullied or made to feel, more than they do already, that they are Outsiders.

Inclusion should mean a sense of being at home in the world. In a mainstream school, it can mean the very opposite. Yet without such a sense the abilities of many autistic children will never be developed or put to good use. For some children with some special needs inclusion can be made to work. For autistic children, I believe that it almost certainly cannot; and the result is frustration, waste and despair. The solution to the problem would be for Government to recognise that special schools should not be only for the most profoundly disabled, but that there should be a number of small, alternative schools, not only for autistic children but for those many children, often with moderate learning difficulties who simply do not flourish in the mainstream.

[annie]

 

If only the Government would listen to her like they listened to her when her 'Inclusion for all' paper came out. They certainly stuck to the previous one without exception.

 

The White Paper says that overall there are 344,000 exclusions from 200,000 pupils. My son managed to clock up 7 of them on his own, and why, because of 'inclusion for all', otherwise known as 'your child WILL go to mainstream whether they can cope of not'

 

Annie

XX

Edited October 29, 2005 by annie

[Clarkie]

 

Clarkie

Edited March 17, 2006 by Clarkie

[Brook]

It says it all doesn't it.

I also wish they would listen

 

Brook

[oracle]

Thanks for this Nellie.

 

I attend the first 'official' meeting of an ASD working party in our area on Monday - that is why I can not attend the Select Committee and I AIM to tell the group this

 

I will also be printing out what you have posted here and will be taking it with me along with a certain modle that I now have. I know that Mary Warnock is now verbalising what you have posted here. She said pretty much word for word what she has written to a member of AIM. I do believe that she will say this at the committee on Monday BUT I wonder if it will count for anything with this new White Paper? Whose responsibility will it be to make sure that things change for our children? Surely PFI or not if this committee reports back that children with ASD need their own specialist provision it will be up to the government to provide for them?

 

I do hope that this message has been sent to the DRC in BIG BLOCK CAPITALS which are UNDERLINED. I felt that they have no understanding what-so-ever of ASD and what schools can do to our children

 

Carole

Edited October 29, 2005 by carole

[annie]

This link is the TV listing for Parliament on Monday.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcparliament/listing...4480&day=monday

 

 

????

[nellie]

The solution to the problem would be for Government to recognise that special schools should not be only for the most profoundly disabled, but that there should be a number of small, alternative schools, not only for autistic children but for those many children, often with moderate learning difficulties who simply do not flourish in the mainstream. 

 

 

Is it just me, but I have a problem with this concept? We already have special schools for children with MLD and SLD, I feel that our children who are high functioning, intelligent and able would not fit the MLD setting. My son went to an MLD school and it met his educational needs because his learning difficulties were significant, but it certainly wouldn't have met his brothers' needs who is AS and has normal intelligence. What about our more able children and our little professors, who have high IQ's, will they fit this setting?

 

Nellie xx

[oracle]

Nellie I think it needs to be quite clearly stated that our children require 'specialist' provision which purely for them and their unique disability. Hope that makes sense? You can not just lump them in with any other disability - that is one of our main issues - they need educational provision to meet their complex and specific needs.

 

Carole

[annie]

I agree Nellie. When we were trying to find a school for Alex, we visited specialist Autistic schools which we felt would not be able to meet his needs. There is a big gap which needs filling for children whose needs cannot be met in those schools or mainstream.

 

I know this has nothing to do with ASD children, but I was told during the week that at the school where I worked as an LSA, there were two Down's Syndrome children, both, like our children were against their parents wishes placed in a mainstream school..........they have both now started at a special school

 

XX

[nellie]

As someone said recently, (can't remember who, but credit to them) we don't just want our children to cope, we want them to thrive and learn.

 

Nellie xx

[nellie]

I stand corrected, they said

survival isn't good enough,we want him to thrive.

 

Nellie xx

[phasmid]

'One size fits all' education provision simply will not/does not work. Even for most NT kids it's for the most part a 'near fit' scenario, which most NT kids can cope with without too much hassle. However there will always be a percentage that will not fit into the round hole offered. Their needs may be oval,triangular or square etc in shape and 'near fit' isn't good enough. Some will need Special schools aome will need something in between. It is those who fall into this 'middle bit' that are the ones that worry me the most they don't fit well into either catergory.

 

I know just how lucky we have been with phas jr, he is in mainstream and he more than 'just about' copes. He has problems, but for the most part with a little bit of forethought between us, mainstream has worked for him, and worked well. But we came close. Had things got just a little worse at one point I don't know where the hell he would have ended up. Special school would have been just as bad for him as mainstream has been for others on the forum.

 

In our area, at least, there is no middle provision. The system nearly spat him out with nowhere to spit him at.

[lisa]

we don't just want our children to cope, we want them to thrive and learn.

 

Nellie

 

Thank you. This is exactly what I think I need to say to my daughter's school but have never found the words. I'm sick of them insisting that she's "coping", I don't think she is but this is the perfect answer when they next say this. I'm also going to print out Baroness Warnock's quote and give it to them.

 

Lisa

[smallworld]

Hi,

Just a minor quibble here,but where exactly is the 'moderate end of the autistic spectrum' ? has 'mild' dropped off ? or 'severe' ???

I also agree with Nellie's point that we already have MLD schools, we really need specific provision for autistic children who cannot thrive in mainstream or MLD schools.

I'm just glad that Dame Mary has had the guts to admit that inclusion will not work for all children, asd or otherwise.

 

wac

P.S. I didn't add that I do agree with Dame Mary's statement, I hope it gets the recognition it deserves.

Edited October 31, 2005 by waccoe

[mossgrove]

we already have MLD schools, we really need specific provision for autistic children who cannot thrive in mainstream or MLD schools.

 

Currently we are very fortunate in that our boys do have that kind of provision.

 

The special school that they attend started life as an MLD school, and still functions as such for about half of it's puils.

 

Around 10 years ago the school was expanded and 48 places were added for children with Autism but without MLD and the two parts of the school run in parallel.

 

The problem at the moment is that there is an assumption that children will be ready to return to mainstream at age 11. Off the record the school accept that this is not realistic in many cases. The LEA also privately recognise this but are constrained as to what they can do by Government policy which actively discourages any new specialist provision that isn't aimed at inclusion or attached to a mainstream school.

 

I have a particular problem with the DRC as they seem incapable of understanding that mainstream schooling is not always the best possible outcome for an Autistic child , so much of their campaigning is counter-productive as far as Autistic people are concerned.

 

 

Simon

Edited October 29, 2005 by mossgrove

[Minxygal]

From mainstream primary my eldest went to a special school for MLD. It didn't work. This was a school that catered for children of all disabilities and they had very little understanding of the sensory and environmental factors that made life for my child so difficult. It took two years for them to admit they couldn't meet his needs, but that for me was two years too long, two wasted years and it has taken a further two years to settle him in to the school he is at now which caters for autism only and totally understands the issues that the previous schools didn't.

 

 

When it comes to mainstream, I have another son on the spectrum who is in a mainstream comprehensive. I would argue that My eldest in special school is much more included than my youngest in mainstream.

 

In mainstream children via for position, it has always been this way and those that sit in the background tend to be the ones that aren't offered the opportunities to do new things and go out on trips etc. I know this as the number of times that my son has been 'forgotten' when letters go out for trips and opportunities and the number of times we seem to have been forgotten too happen all too often. A prime example of this is the last commendation evening that school had. We had no invite, apparently most of the other parents did. It turned out that James had received a commendation but his was handed to him in class during regestration a week later. In my opinion they robbed us of an opportunity to celebrate a success for James, opportunities that are few and far between with my son. I know James wouldn't have wanted to have gone up on stage and received his reward, but just to hear his name called would have been wonderful.

 

In the special school where my eldest son Mark goes we are welcomed in with open arms and the opportunities to share in his success and the sucess of the school are generous and often. I feel part of my sons education here and the opportunities for swimming galas and cross country runs are endless and we go to them all and celebrate along with the school. ( For anyone who thinks that our kids wouldn't enjoy opportunites like this you should go to a few, the kids love them)

 

 

It is my honest opinion that while the special school does wonders for Marks self esteem in mainstream, despite all the things put into place to support him in mainstream the message sent to my youngest son is that he will never be good enough.

Edited October 30, 2005 by Minxygal

[Zemanski]

I know it isn't perfect and I know the provision we want is often just not there for our children but I do think this statement is a step in the right direction

 

first it actually states that the system is failing ASD children, and, mentions, for the first time in what will be a parlimentary address that I know of, that our children often have high ability and that this is an issue in meeting their needs.

 

it also states clearly that although inclusion is a right for all children it is not necessarily appropriate for all children, in fact she says she does not think it is appropriate for autistic children at all and that there are other (MLD) children who need 'small, alternative schools' too - she does not actually say these should be the same schools (it would be helpful though if she had said that they should be specific for ASDs, separate from the MLD provision - perhaps she will clarify that in her actual address )

 

I really hope she gets these points across and that the government act on this advice as a first step towards meeting our kids needs more effectively.

 

if we can get this one step forward we have made progress and can work on the next step. It would be very nice to see it all come together and see a new move towards specialist ASD provision to suit the full range of our children's needs but I see that as the long term goal (not too long term I hope) - stopping the damage forced and inappropriate inclusion is doing to our kids is the priority and I think Mary Warnock is on board with this.

 

in the last few years it is the 'inclusion for all' regardless of need that has done by far the most damage

 

if Mary Warnock can stem that tide then I vote we make her an honourary demi-goddess

 

perhaps I am being over-optimistic, the government is not easily influenced to go against the grain of one of their central policies, but if anyone can influence this at the moment I think it may be her.

 

perhaps once she's convinced them our kids should not necessarily be in mainstream she'll start to work on the specialist provision

 

we can but hope

 

Zemanski

[oracle]

I do agree that this is a massive step in the right direction but I also worry that if this new White Paper take off then no mater what anyone has said it will no longer be the Governments problem. That is my biggest concern - did this come too late to make a real difference

 

I hope not.

 

Carole

[nellie]

Zemanski,

 

I know it isn't perfect and I know the provision we want is often just not there for our children but I do think this statement is a step in the right direction

 

I agree it is a step in the right direction and I have huge respect for Baroness Warnock and I'm grateful for her input, but I'm fed up of having to make do with less than perfect.

 

I would like to see professionals with expertise in ASD backing Baroness Warnock, putting pressure on the government to make the changes that need to be made in education for children with ASD. People like Lorna Wing, Judith Gould, Gillian Baird and education experts in ASD like Rita Jordan and Glenys Jones. I know we have the National Autism Plan for children but it isn't mandatory.

 

Nellie xx

[oracle]

Do not worry Nellie as Richard Exley is on the case for AIM Richard will take no half helpings he wants a full plate He will hopefully be speaking to Sarah Spiller (she requested that she could speak to someone) and I am 100% certain that Richard will make sure that the message being taken away from AIM at least is LOUD and CLEAR

 

 

 

Carole

[barefoot wend]

Go Richard!

[Zemanski]

 

Zemanski

[Canopus]

There used to be loads of special needs residential schools in the 1980s and early 90s and almost every one of these including my former school closed down between 1990 and 1995. Most were badly run institutions governed by people who did not understand SEN or care much about the welfare and future of children. All they were interested in was money and power. In some cases staff had a vindictive attitude and took pleasure in dishing out pain and misery on innocent defenceless children simply because they got a thrill out of it. Often the prevailing attitude at the time was that kids need more discipline and it should be imposed by whatever means is most appropriate including the use of violence, intimidation, or fear. The primary objective of these schools was not to provide a suitable learning environment for kids with SEN, but to reform them into normal people.

 

Over time information emerged that these schools did more harm than good, so LEAs became more and more reluctant to send kids to them. As a result of not being able to get sufficient SEN kids to keep the schools running they had no choice but to close. Perhaps if AS was known about in the educational community during the 1980s and that it was incurable, then some of these schools would have adapted themselves to become AS specialist centres. Now we have a situation where there are insufficient schools for kids with AS because most of the potential schools closed down over a decade ago.

[helenl53]

Hi Canopus,

 

We had a school close down in our region because it was not getting the referrals.

 

Our parents had never even heard of it. Our local paper launched a campaign to try and save it, however the powers that be decided that the kids would be better served by being 'included' in mainstream schools. Despite kids and parents all giving personal testimonies to the difference this school had made to their lives, it was closed.

 

Last year, a young boy was hurled from a bridge by two other boys. Although he tried to grip on to the brickwork, the boys prised his fingers off and the lad fell to his death. He drowned as he was unable to swim.

 

It was reported that this boy had recently been included in a mainstream school and that he had previously attended a special school. It was also reported by his dad that he had communication difficulties and that he had been bullied since he had attended the mainstream school. It may or may not have been an ASD that this boy had, but I am sure that he would still be alive today if he was in the special school.

 

Best wishes

 

 

HelenL

[Brook]

Helen,

 

That is just so terribly tragic it really churned me up reading about that little boy.

 

All this is so very frightening isn't it.

 

Brook

[CarerQuie]

I remember hearing about that case but not the fact that the boy had previously attended a special school.It makes my blood run cold just to think about the ramifications.xx

[baddad]

Nowt fresh to add, but would add my voice with those hoping that something positive comes out of all this.

It's shooting for the stars, I know, but i think the one thing all the posts here underline is the fact that ASD's - probably more than any other disablity - need a diverse range of responses that are (an old phrase, but none the less apt for that!) NEEDS LED and appropriate to the individual...

That may initially sound impossible, but perhaps we need to stop looking at WHERE such a system could be put in place, but HOW it could be incorporated into what's already there(?) Another cliche phrase, but whatever happened to 'Holistic Assessment'? Would seem the place to start: assess the inividual needs/strengths/personal circumstances, and then see how and where they can best be provided for. It may not be that every child could get exactly what he/she needs, but at least (hopefully) the placement he/she did get would have a clear understanding of what the goals and expectations were.

The trouble with many MLD schools was/is the same one faced by Mainstream schools: Too many variables within an inflexible, overstretched and under resourced framework. Any real solution would have to include measures to reduce the number of variables, increase flexibilty and target resources more effectively. To do that, you actually have to look beyond labels, statements, medical models - the lot - and start looking at individuals again.

L&P

BD

PS: Sorry for the waffle - lack of sleep again!)

[madme]

just wanted to add that the system that we operate in is ineffectual We chose school which we thought was middle ground. OUr son has acomplex dx adhd, dyspraxia and asd. He has a high IQ and we were scared of local SEN schools. Boarding at 7 was not suitable although his psch did suggest. Despite strong evidence from his pschj and gp tribunal did not accept that needed small school jsut suggested that needed well resourced primary. Im mad as this will now affect his transition to secondary. Reality is that primary HT lied. Why should son pay for this. Tribunals should accept the medical evidence. If my son psch says that willaxffect him then that should be sufficient. But games will be played. Realiy is that local LEa dont have enough spaces for all secondary kids let alone sen ones.

[helenl53]

Hi Madme

 

Lisa and I both lost Tribunal cases that had very strong medical and Psychology evidence and ruling was that mainstream were able to meet needs.

 

I think the system is well and truly doo doo

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL