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[Two naughty children!]

I just had to write this call me unchristian and selfish, but I was so angry this morning to hea that our Government is giving Mowsambique (can't spell) ?86billion pounds to educate their children.

 

What about mine!!!!

[col]

I know it just make's you scream doesn't it!!

I can't get my son referred to the Nuffield ENT hospital who are experts in the field of Verbal/Oral dyspraxia even tho his both his sisters are/was under their wing due to POTENTIAL COSTS!!

 

Do we always have to give so much money out? When our NHS and education is starting to become a poor state.

[palgem]

hi

yours don,t count their english could try moving ? makes u wonder how they think thow . no i,m not racist but the facts speak for them self

 

 

bye for now palgem

[Flora]

Have to be honest, when I heard this on the radio this morning I was livid. I know that we should help people but surely putting your own house straight before giving hand outs is the best way forward?

 

Lauren

[DaisyProudfoot]

I know I was pretty miffed about that too

 

Here we are struggling with the education of our children in our own country and they're happily doling it out to foreign countries.

 

I appreciate these countries need help to bring standards up to a healthy position but this will end up being to the detriment of our own children.

 

I suppose in the long run these Mozambique children could become teachers and then they could come over here and teach our kids eh?

 

It frustrates me really, our company runs a charity to help educate children in Ghana......we've built a school, and now starting on another, a library, we send over computers and books, we helped the scouts and guides but it's all funding from charitable donations and there's only 14 of us working here, plus a host of contributing readers from one of our magazines.

 

This is what should be happening ...... funding for education in developing countries should be coming from private sources not the Government, we pay our taxes to help our own country not fund somebody else's wars ...... which is what will probably be what happens to this ?86 billion - it never goes to the people who need it most.

 

If you give ?30 to Oxfam or similar charity that will educate one child through it's secondary school for a considerable time. It's not a lot really, so why does ?86 billion sound too much - I guess they could be educating them in nuclear physics I suppose

[mossgrove]

The figure is 8.5 billion over the next few years to help education across the 3rd world.

 

More info at:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html

 

My thought on this is to go back to the old proverb "Two Wrongs don't make a right".

 

As one of the richest countries in the world (Even if it doesn't feel like it sometimes) I think that. alongside other countries we do have a responsibility to help people who cannot help themselves.

 

If you go down the line that unless every aspect of our own service provision is fully funded we shouldn't give any overseas aid, this seems uncomfortably close to the arguent that says we should not be splashing out on Special schools and support services for children with Autism unless mainstream schools have all the staff, buildings and equipment that they need.

 

Simon

[Paula]

Helping other people abroad doesnt bother me as much as the amount of cash the goverment pump into wars and so called peace keeping.

 

All the money wasted in my opinion on destruction that could be spent on helping people gets me angry.

 

 

i was watching a programme a few months ago some big oil company was investing billions in some sort of platform that could move in the artic or something billions it was costing.The next article along on the news was the starving in dafor (cant spell it) It seams so so wrong to me.

 

Oil,Money making more money blowing people up then theres no limit to the money but helping people doing whats right and its quibbled about.

 

I could rant on about food mountaines and half the world over eating and desperatley trying to loose weight whilst the other half starve to death.

 

Basically untill we live in a world not goverend by money or the aqusition of wealth above human costs then we can never know the true meaning of life.

Edited April 10, 2006 by Paula

[lancelot]

Such a difficult one.

We took up sponsoring a little boy in Sierra Leone when C was born. The organization lost touch with him because he moved or was killed -- they never found out which -- during the wars there. The second child we sponsored moved out of the area because of flooding. The third (this time a Kenyan boy about C's age, and a big Thomas the Tank fan) is now rejoicing because his village finally HAS a school and he's just started there.

 

The reason I'm saying this is that I was trying to think what to write to him about school life here (bearing in mind that it all has to be translated and still mean something!). For once, C's troubles in 'accessing the full curriculum' kind of seemed to pale into insignificance.

 

Bet they don't by the annual review next week!

[Canopus]

I am in favour of abolishing overseas aid and spending the money on our own needy people. I don't give a damn to starving children in Africa or Tsunami victims. Call me racist and fascist if you wish but I am entitled to my belief.

[Suze]

Gosh I feel very fortunate to have been born in a country that is rich in food, health care, and education, compared to those in the 3rd world.I,m sat here at my computer, in my warm house with running water , electricity, my kids have full tummys from their dinner and are watching the telly.I don,t agree with the way our government spends some of it,s cash, but I don,t have a problem with helping those who need it more.It makes me feel guilty to have so much.

[Paula]

I am in favour of abolishing overseas aid and spending the money on our own needy people. I don't give a damn to starving children in Africa or Tsunami victims. Call me racist and fascist if you wish but I am entitled to my belief.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I cant beleive you dont give a damn about starving people.I totally shocked.How can anyone watch those images of starving children and adults in the third world,or the victims of natural disasters and civil wars and not want to help and feel totally helpless.

 

Yes it would be great if all our countries problems could be solved also.But lets be realistic when we say were hard done by or starving it normally means we havent got the latest HD ready tv or weve gone two hours without a bag of crisps.Not the same thing as not haveing water,shelter however basic and some sort of clothing. Or liveing in fear of looseing youre life every single day due to civil wars.

 

And yes for the record i do help the homeless i see around my local town.I either give money or i go and buy food and a warm drink for them.These people are always freindly,intelligent and so much more than the image portrayed if you take the time to look and speak to them.

 

Some may call me stupid,saying it all goes on drugs and drink but i dont beleive that.

 

There but for the grace of god.

[Brook]

I also feel very lucky to live in our Country, I think it's sometimes a case of not realising how lucky we

are in some respects. Although I would like to see more help for our kids, I certainly dont begrudge

children in other Countries benefiting from ours.

 

I felt very upset watching the aftermath of the tsunami on tv, watching those poor people who have lost

everything, walking around looking for their children, god it doesn't bear thinking about.

I can only imagine it's like waking up one day to find your house has fallen down around you and nothing

is left, including your family, you then walk around your town to find all that has been destroyed and

nothing left, all you have is what you are standing in, I for one would want some help!

And seeing starving children on tv is upsetting, they are human beings, I think it's all to easy to take

what we have for granted, but as the saying goes 'the more you have the more you want'.

 

I think it's easy for us to turn a blind eye when it's not on your own doorstep, as with many things

when it comes a knocking at your door, then you start to take note.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but I for one am relieved that my kids live in a Country where

they will certainly not starve.

 

I think this thread is going a little off topic and could turn personal, I hope it doesnt and we can all

express our own beliefs without falling out with eachother.

 

Brook

[Auriel]

I am in favour of abolishing overseas aid and spending the money on our own needy people. I don't give a damn to starving children in Africa or Tsunami victims. Call me racist and fascist if you wish but I am entitled to my belief.

 

So many people, it seems, are so quick to put down giving money to these countries, being completeley ignorant to what its like for them...

 

Perhaps we should starve them and not give a damn about them.

 

I'd find that funny, we could televise it.

Edited April 10, 2006 by Auriel

[phasmid]

PLEASE NOTE:

 

This thread is being actively observed by the moderating team. Whilst everyone is entitiled to have, and voice, their opinion on this matter please be aware that if the nature of further postings become in any way personal this thread will be moderated as we see fit.

 

Please people, can we keep to the subject matter and not to others opinions of it.

 

Phasmod

Edited April 10, 2006 by phasmid

[DaisyProudfoot]

Personally I have absolutely nothing against giving money to worthy causes in other countries, especially developing countries which is why the company I work for does so much to help in its own way, but I am very concerned that in many cases the money or goods doesn't get to the right people.

 

My boss personally supervises the delivery of goods and money to Ghana and we know it goes straight into the hands who need it most. Unfortunately a lot of Government-funded aid ends up in the wrong hands adminstered by greedy power lords in starving countries for their own gains and not the gains of the people. These are the concerns I have. Thankfully charities such as Oxfam, Cafod and the like do ensure money goes into the right hands, lets hope our own Government uses such stringent measures too and doesn't just hand over billions of pounds to fund another pointless war.

[TuX]

The UK doesn't lose it's own funding when giving some to outside UK,there is a seperate budget for international things so it doesn't, or at least shouldn't affect what is spent on UK people here.

[Paula]

We all moan about this country whingeing about taxs and the cost of liveing ect and the state of the national health.

 

But whenever ive had to call out an abulance or use any of the emrgency services theyve been great. The problems begin when and if youve to be admitted to an hospital ward.Thats whn you notice how run down things are.Againe its not the nurses but lack of money or should i say the money doesnt go to the right places.

[Tylers-mum]

Gosh I feel very fortunate to have been born in a country that is rich in food, health care, and education, compared to those in the 3rd world.I,m sat here at my computer, in my warm house with running water , electricity, my kids have full tummys from their dinner and are watching the telly.I don,t agree with the way our government spends some of it,s cash, but I don,t have a problem with helping those who need it more.It makes me feel guilty to have so much.

 

Beautifully said. I totally agree with Suze on this one.

[Canopus]

I think Portugal should go and finance education in Mozambique. It was their colony so they should pick up the pieces when things go wrong.

[Sallya]

I think there's enough wealth in the world for it to be shared. Isn't that what we try and teach our children to do ?

[baddad]

Jesus... The Milk of human kindness may not have run out in this country just yet, but from some of these responses I guess we're down to the last few drops, and they're prety ###### sour...

 

Canopus, applying your logic re Portugal to the old British Empire, I guess we'd be pretty damn skint by now, wouldn't we??

 

There are MANY MANY things wrong with the way this Government/Country prioritises spending, but I for one wouldn't want to see any cutbacks in overseas aid. Grace of God, and all that...

[Canopus]

I would really like to know how much Mozambique has spent on wars since its independence. The amount of money African countries spend on wars and weaponary disgusts me. Most African countries are corrupt one party dictatorships with no democracy. Perhaps they should only be given overseas aid money on the condition that their present politicians impose democracy and then resign never to be seen again after a new democratic leadership takes control. Many African presidents are obscenely rich people and are probably richer than Bill Gates if you take into account the value of the land, industry, and utilities they own.

 

Now you understand why I begrudge seeing British taxpayer's money being given to Africa.

[Flora]

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't want aid to other countries to stop. Like many people I'm always willing to dig deep with money or my time towards aid for people who are suffering. I think the thing that riles is that we are constantly being told 'there isn't enough money for that, this or the other'. I would like to think that in a country that can afford to give billions for educating children in other continents that the education of their own children was as it should be. I give every month to cancer research and a couple of other charities (save the children and Oxfam), I would like to think that if I developed breast cancer (and anyone else with any other disease) that I would receive the up to date drugs that would prolong my life. The money that has been given that this thread is about was for education not food. I am being told, as many of us are, that our LA is so strapped for cash that they can't afford to address SEN in a way which would suit each individual child. And yet our government has handed over billions for educating children on a different continent.

 

Nobody wants to stand back and see people starving and denied the fundamental things that keep them alive. I don't want aid for those poor people to stop. I would just like to see our NHS working as it should and our education system. I would like to see people who have worked hard all their life recieving the pensions they paid for. I would like to go shopping in cities and towns and not see homeless people begging on the street.

 

Yes, we have to do all we can to help people in need. But surely charity begins at home and we should be putting our own house straight first. The hypocrisy of this government makes me sick and I can't praise this latest action.

 

Lauren

[baddad]

Now you understand why I begrudge seeing British taxpayer's money being given to Africa.

 

 

No i don't.

You seem to be saying that because a small minority are corrupt the rest somehow 'deserve' to suffer - or at least, don't deserve to be treated with humanity and compassion and dignity. Apply that principal to OUR history, and we're back in the middle ages...

[Flora]

Just have to say the tone of this thread has upset me a great deal from both sides of the argument. It is so easy for us to have an opinion and argue points but at the end of the day so many people are suffering and individually we can't do a thing about it.

 

I remember that short film of the two children in Africa, their mother had died of aids and their dad was sick and dying. The boy was about 7 and the girl about 10. It was very harrowing and it certainly made me pick the phone up with my dibit card at hand.

 

The people of this country have donated millions to Africa, and now our government is doing the same. I hope that one day it will make a permanent difference.

 

I am grateful that I don't have to worry that my children will have enough to eat, or have access to clean water, medication, love, and warmth.

 

The sad thing is though that those things aren't enough when you live in a Western society. If we lived in starving Africa none of our children would be picky eaters. We wouldn't be worrying about being able to afford a trampoline or trips to theme parks. We wouldn't be worried about our children being bullied at school or whether their teachers had a good understanding of ASD (in that situation would we even be worrying about ASD?). We wouldn't be worried about a 12 month waiting list for CAHMS. But those are the things we do worry about because we are lucky that the society we live in means we don't have to worry about basic survival, and if our government was willing to invest a fraction of that 86 billion, or whatever it was, into education and health then this thread wouldn't exist.

 

 

 

Lauren

[Tylers-mum]

Lauren, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

I also believe that one of the moderators should CLOSE this thread b/c it really is getting out of line and upsetting a LOT of people inc myself!

 

People are entitled to their thoughts and I am all for that but please people, do we really need this when we have enough to deal with in our lives?? Priorites need to be sorted. JMO!

[baddad]

But those are the things we do worry about because we are lucky that the society we live in means we don't have to worry about basic survival, and if our government was willing to invest a fraction of that 86 billion, or whatever it was, into education and health then this thread wouldn't exist.

 

Lauren

 

Hi Lauren -

 

Sorry if this seems insensitive, hun - I really do take your point onboard, but i still feel the need to add this... If our Government was willing to spend ALL of that 86 billion on health and education this thread would still exist, because all that money would just mean that we moved our own goalposts even further. Our kids would have a few more books, the NHS would have cleaner sheets while even more died of poverty at the other end of the world... there is ONE fundamental problem with the world economy, and it's as true in the UK and America as it is in South Africa or Bangladesh - the DIFFERENCE between the haves and have nots... There is no way that the haves can have that bigger percentage, while the have nots have such a small slice of the action. You can only fix that inconsistency by working at it on ALL levels, and sadly the HAVES don't want to give anything up...

 

L&P

BD

[Canopus]

It seems strange how the government will send the military in to overthrow a dictator in Iraq but they won't go and do the same in African countries. There have been times in the past when it has crossed my mind that Britain should repeal and revoke the independence declarations given to certain former colonies. It is blatantly obvious to all that their leaders have abused the independence the British government granted them. Africa has had billions of pounds chucked at it over the past 50 or so years and hardly anything seems to have improved. A leading economics professor once stated that overseas aid is a complete waste of money and creates a dependency culture. I think there is no point in giving a penny to African countries that are governed by corrupt dictatorships because it helps keep dictators in power. What is needed is to get to the root of the problem which isn't lack of money but lack of democracy and governments that care about nobody but their crony career politicians.

 

Harder to understand is the attitudes of many ordinary Africans in that they do virtually nothing to try and overthrow corrupt dictatorships, (rest of sentence removed by moderator). I think it is highly irresponsible for parents in third world countries to have so many children if they are incapable of feeding or supporting them.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Kathryn

[zaman]

Yes, not enough is being done to support our children, especially when we are told there isn't the funds to give them the appropriate level of support to access education. But perhaps we need to be getting a bit more noisy about it instead of begrudging the funds that go into overseas aid, we should be organising ourselves to force the goverment to fund special education. No one is going to give our kids anything unless we are fighting tooth and nail - but we are each of us doing it at an individual local level. We need a national campaign with teeth.

[madme]

In our area there is a three year waiting list for an autism assessment. Im sorry but my first feelings when i saw this was that the government is being hypocrtical. Yes we need to give aid but we must also prioritise the little that there is to go around better. Ever seen that film where a guy look like the president and so when the president is ill he takes over- cant recall the name. He then loks at eveything with a simplistic view and reaaranges budgets. Yes gooy and oversimplistic but there does seem to be a problem with prioritisation here in lots of areas

[Paula]

I think the film is called dave isnt it with jamie lee curtis playing the presidents wife.

 

 

I often wonder also why it is that the goverments dont go into african countries and over throw there dictatorships like theyve done in iraq.

 

Oil and money i beleive is the reason.If Africa had an oil industry or anything else that western society needed and this was threatend theyd be straight in there calling it a just war.

 

On the subject of waiting lists i waited 3 years for my As son to get to see a clinical physcologist for al but 20 minutes only to be told he didnt know anything about autistic spectrum disorders and AS.Long waite for nothing.

[Canopus]

If you look in the right places you will find disturbing information that a high proportion of overseas aid money ends up lining the pockets of the rich. Do you really think that overseas aid money is given directly to individuals, schools, hospitals, and local communities? It isn't. Most of the time it is given directly to central governments run by tinpot dictators.

[Lucas]

Just to wade in even though this thread seems to be quite long already.

 

The aid being given to the country in question, Mozambique(spelling?), is for public education. But more than half of children there are in PRIVATE education, as is the case for many other African nations and is becoming more common. The public education system in that country is awful: money is wasted on corruption, fraud, beurocracy and standards are well below acceptable. Giving money to this will only make it continue and if enough money is pored into public education, it could destroy the private sector which is not a good thing because then there is no inventive at all to raise standards in public schools: they still get the money for being trash.

 

I remember last year when Rwanda had 30million dollars of it's debt cancelled: the president went and bought himself a 30 million dollar private jet.

 

Lenny Henry is certainly not cold-hearted when it comes to African aid, a lot of what Comic Relief does in in Africa as well as the UK. But unlike many other attention-seeking celebs, he understands the harm in thinking money solves everything and he directs Comic Relief towards a more hands-on approach.

 

In one of his sketch shows however, he plays an unspecific African leader having a meeting with a UN official who each week hands him another aid cheque after seeking reassurances that it will be spent on the good of the people. Each time right after taking the cheque and locking it in his drawer, the African leader suddenly has an ingenious idea like "Instead of drilling wells for water, lets instead use the money to drill one big well right to the centre of the Earth. Then we can take the honey from the Earth and use it to feed the people!"

 

Each week his bright idea gets more and more ridiculous. Lenny Henry is making a serious satirical point here. There are very few politicians in Britain that are without flaws but they are elite statesmen compared to a LOT of African governments.

 

There are a lot of civil wars in parts, and if these countries were really poor then those wars wouldn't happen because there wouldn't be anything to fight over. Africa's resources are simply not put to use because of the greed of certain people(and it is not a few because if it were then the civil majority would not have a problem putting a stop to it) who have value systems centuries ago there isn't a chance of it happening. So aid fills in the gap where production doesn't happen, but the aid is misappropriated and can often just fund more war.

 

Someone who says they want to cut aid is not saying they want people to starve and die, that's a strawman arguement. They're just saying the aid is not neccessary; it's only needed because the powerful in those countries refuse to take any responsibility.

 

Question 1: When charities like Oxfam only ask for ?2 a month from a donor, why are billions neccessary even if it is over a number of years?

 

Question 2: If you write off third world debt unconditionally, no one in their right mind will ever invest in them again(increasing reliance on hand outs and not encouraging independence at all). How does this benefit those countries?

 

Question 3: Where do African politicans get the money for those palaces, villas, private armies, shiny medals for military service they've never done, armoured cars and more food than their people see in a week?

 

Question 4: Successful African businesses, trade, production and agriculture exist that do not rely on Fair-Trade agreements, subsidy or aid and they are not rare even in areas of high unemployment. So why are they only shown in western media in the context of Fair-Trade, subsidy and aid being given? Why is the implication so strong that these things cannot exist without some celebrity or politician trying to raise their profile? The images given of starving children, lepers and refugees are intended to tug at the heart, but not give anyone room to be objective for one moment. People are indeed dying, but it isn't because of a greedy western culture not giving.

[PinkSapphireAngel]

It seems strange how the government will send the military in to overthrow a dictator in Iraq but they won't go and do the same in African countries.

 

 

There is nothing the governments want from Africa and Iraq etc have the oil.

I saw the true based film HOTEL RWANDA it was heartbreaking the way those poor people were just ignored by the world, especially the so called super powers.

 

I agree there seriously needs prioritising when it comes to giving aid to anyone in this world.

[Paula]

I saw that film too.No one in the western goverments gave a toss it appeared and turned a conveniant blind eye.

[DaisyProudfoot]

I've just heard an article on Radio 4 about Andrew Carnegie and his commitment to education.

 

We've all heard the phrase "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, give a man a fishing rod and he'll eat for the rest of his life."

 

In Carnegie's case the "fishing rod" was education of the poor and needy.

 

Makes sense now doesn't it

Edited April 11, 2006 by DaisyProudfoot

[phasmid]

This thread is now closed. It has become a politicaly motivated thread and, as such, is irrelevant on this forum. daisy Proudfoots comment seems an apt point on which to end it.

 

 

Phasmid