Empathy

[KarenT]

I know this has been discussed before but I've searched and can't find a relevant thread, so apologies for digging it up again.

 

I'd like to do a quick straw-poll on those of you with diagnosed children who are able to express empathy. Our last assessment for J failed on the basis that he could empathise and I want to cover all bases in preparation for the second opinion assessment that's coming up over the summer.

 

A quick Y/N will do but details would be helpful as well, if you can.

 

Karen

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[aro]

I don't think so, she kinda knows the theory but doesn't put it into practise, infact an upset child excites her, if it's her cousin she will actually attack him when he is crying!

[lancelot]

Yes and no!

As our SALT put it, 'There is a huge gulf between C's theoretical understanding of other people's feelings, and what he can manage in practice'.

 

He is very capable of reflecting on how people might have felt, provided he has all the information -- but he often can't pick it up from their body language, and he can't do it on the fly because he's thinking about too many other things. In other words, he can do it, but only if that's what he is concentrating on.

 

He's 10, diagnosed Asperger's at 7; 20 hours statemented help at school.

HTH

L

[aro]

ok lancelot, something spooky going on here, same avatar, same advice????

[lancelot]

Birds of a feather....!

[Jill]

I recently had quite a shock loss in the family (not going into it here because I don't want to nick Aro's thread). As a result I was sitting around a lot with a sad face, just staring into the distance. No obvious signs of distress IYKWIM, just blank.

 

Every time The Boy passed me he would climb onto my knee and give me a big hug and tilt his forehead towards me (his way of kissing). This is something that he does rarely, but he's done it 2 or 3 times a day for the last coupla weeks.

 

He must have "picked up" on something from me & was trying to show me he cared in his little way. It's not just me that's noticed it either - others have commented on how "fussy" he's been around me recently.

 

So, yeah, I reckon he has empathised - with very little visual clue from me either.

[Bagpuss]

Our dd (5 ASD) would laugh when her siblings were upset about something. Now, as she's got a little older she kind of understands that its not appropriate to laugh. She doesn't like seeing people upset now, but I think thats because she doesn't know how to react to it, not because she empathises. She will tell people to smile if they are upset, and that seems to calm her.

[desperate]

hi there. Neil has no empathy with others. He has no understanding at all that other people have feelings wants or needs. He has no understanding of poverty or illness and can't understand why we all get upset at films showing people starving in other countries or of people with disabilities or are badly disfigured. He will actually "giggle" sometimes at these films.

He has no understanding of emotion in others and virtually no understanding of his own emotions. If he "knows" some emotional response is required he will pick anyone and very often it's the wrong one.

[DaisyFulkirk]

I know this has been discussed before but I've searched and can't find a relevant thread, so apologies for digging it up again.

 

I'd like to do a quick straw-poll on those of you with diagnosed children who are able to express empathy. Our last assessment for J failed on the basis that he could empathise and I want to cover all bases in preparation for the second opinion assessment that's coming up over the summer.

 

A quick Y/N will do but details would be helpful as well, if you can.

 

Karen

x

 

I can. I think. How do I know if I can or not?

[justamom]

Yes, keegan shows empathy! but not all the time - difficult to explain

[smiley]

M is very affectionate - very caring, but it's often (as most things can be with him) inappropriate.

 

If sees' someone's hurt - he will want to sooth them - but his reaction will most likely be be wrong or inappropriate.

 

This is a very visual thing - he cannot 'put himself in someone elses' shoes' and finds it hard to understand people being 'sad' with something they haven't seen. For instance - i witnessed an accident here last week. Very nasty - big truck and old guy on a mobility scooter.... .... The next day there were lots of flowers up ........ I got when we drove past, and M just couldn't understand why (although he knew someone had died) - he became anxious and thought i must be upset because i knew the man. I explained i didn't know him - but i was just sad because it was a sad thing to happen. He found that difficult to understand - BUT - he did eventually, he ended up in tears for twenty minutes about it........

 

And then we get into the whole 'theory of mind thing'..................

 

Probably not helped!! - Probably confused you even more!!! I don't want to say No empathy........ But, not quite Yes either......... ........with me so far???

[CarerQuie]

Rh does give the impression of showing empathy.he will say 'poor X' but it is more often because he's heard others use that in similar situations.xx

[KarenT]

This is really interesting. Thanks for the replies so far, very helpful to get different perspectives on this. Keep 'em coming!

 

I'm not sure how empathy fits into the spectrum because there seem to be so many different responses. J's empathy 'seems' to be normal but I'm not sure what that means.

 

He does need a lot of emotional stuff explained to him but once he's had that he can accept and understand. However I remember him being very alarmed at his feelings the first time he watched Ice Age and couldn't understand how he could feel happy and sad at the same time. I suspect most children would just accept it as a happy ending but it really confused J.

 

Then, a couple of days ago at school he chose a particular boy as a partner 'because he had a sore tummy and I thought it might cheer him up'. That seems quite normal, doesn't it? But he was offering him a partnership in something J wanted to do rather than what the boy himself would want. This is his usual approach - if someone is upset he tends to offer something that would make himself feel better in similar circumstances, so I'm not sure if that's true empathy because you'd probably look to the individual's personal needs at the time rather than your own. Am I makign sense? What do others make of that?

 

Anyway, would love to hear more, this is helping.

 

Karen

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[bikergal]

My 12 year old dd still giggles uncontrollably when she is poking, hitting , kicking my 11 year old dd. The more distressed the younger one is the more dd12 giggles. She will also walk away smiling/giggling if dd11 has hurt herself.

 

Dd12 seriously thinks her toys have feelings and gets very upset when people say they haven't. She won't offer affection at all. She has, on the odd occasion said that I look sad but that's quite rare.

 

I wouldn't say that she does not empathise at all, maybe she does, perhaps it is the expression of her own feelings that is the problem or when she does express them they are inappropriate.

[Elanor]

This sounds like one of the common fallacies about ASD - people who should know better telling us that our kids aren't ASD because they show empathy, have some social skills, make eye contact, don't stim etc.

 

Asperger's and HFA are complex and sometimes subtle disorders - children might exhibit deficits in skills, rather than lacking them all together. A child may have empathy - but is it as well-developed as you'd expect in a similarly aged child, are there oddities in the child's ability to empathise, is the empathic response actually impaired, or misdirected? It isn't as black and white as some people think!

 

Elanor

[col]

Hubby went to New York on buisness a couple of months ago. DD7 was upset and cried a little. DD8 goes "hurrah, no more bossy boots!"

 

When he came home, DD7 and DS were happy to see it. DD8 couldn't be bothered

[Jill]

I can. I think. How do I know if I can or not?

 

Hmmm. If you see someone hurt, do you feel sad for them? Do you attempt to make them feel better by offering something that you know that they like, rather than something that you know would make you feel better / that you like? Do you want to hug people / offer comfort when you see they are sad? Do you sometimes watch something on tv or read something in a paper and find tears in your eyes because you think it is sad? If yes to any / all of these, then I would say that you empathise (IMO).

 

Hubby went to New York on buisness a couple of months ago. DD7 was upset and cried a little. DD8 goes "hurrah, no more bossy boots!"

 

When he came home, DD7 and DS were happy to see it. DD8 couldn't be bothered

 

When I originally read this, I thought DD8 meant you had 8 daughters ............. until I read your sig. D'oh!

[Bullet]

Ds1 has no empathy. I know he's very young, but he never cried as a baby if another baby cried, he never reacts if someone's crying, he won't hug anyone or kiss them (well, headbutt them with him ) if they are looking sad or have hurt themselves (things I've seen younger children do).

With myself, well, yes, I'll say I do empathise but I find it difficult to ask how people are, check how they're doing, I rarely feel much emotion myself and have to keep reminding myself others may be upset, for instance. Saying that though if anyone is crying or shouting at someone else I get very upset and end up in tears myself, even though it's got nowt to do with me

My empathy has certainly improved than when I was a child. I did have some empathy but I can remember being about nine or ten and there was this government cautionary advert on. It showed a man and a child drowning and this woman and another child (obviously a family) crying and reaching out to them. My reaction?

"Why is she upset? She's got another child"

I cringe now to think about it.

[KarenT]

Really gaining a lot of insight from this discussion. I suspect age is a factor, as shown from those adults who feel they do express empathy. I suppose what I'm looking for is the difference between innate empathy and learned behaviour - it seems that quite a few are able to express it once they've been taught how, J included.

 

Thanks for this.

 

Karen

x

[yoyo]

the difference between innate empathy and learned behaviour - it seems that quite a few are able to express it once they've been taught how

 

I relate to this. As an adult my empathy appears fine once I can identify with the situation. In truth I'm rather like Bullet as a child and I also cringe at my lack of feelings back then. However, when I compare myself to my AS father my empathy levels are really rather good!! If someone points a person's feelings out to me I am able to take how they are feeling on board - my AS father and AS half brother can only identify with how they feel themselves.

 

Yoyo

[curra]

My son has no or little empathy and this shows all the time. It's a constant effort on my part to make him recognise other people's feelings, what they go through and what is the best way to react. Most of the time he giggles or makes remarks that would offend others. He has very little insight into feelings, he gets them all wrong, for instance if you're tired, he'd say "you're lazy", if two people disagree in a conversation, he'd would say that they hate each other. if I explain that something is wrong (like saying hurtful things), he says. "yeah, I know but I like to" and he goes on. When he gets into trouble he lies and contradicts himslef. If asked why he lied, he says that he was trying to think of the answer that he's supposed to say. Other times he lies just to get what he wants. Then later he's able to reflect on his actions and he says that he couldn't control himself. It always seemed to me that he has no innate empathy, he does have understanding of rules and other people's feelings, but he hasn't been able to learn yet how to identify with a situation and react in a sociably accepatable way. He's almost 13.

 

Curra

[Zemanski]

I think autistic people do have empathy but that they are less able to recognise others' feelings or express their own

 

if you cannot read people's intentions and feelings effectively how can you respond to them? - Com shows empathy when the feelings expressed are obvious, eg when someone is actually crying, but not being able to see a whole face means he doesn't often pick up more subtle expressions of upset. I think this is true for many people on the spectrum

 

Also the way he shows empathy is not typical because he does not express his own emotions well. Sometimes he is so distressed by others' feelings and possibly not fully understanding them that he becomes stressed and withdrawn or goes into meltdown - I think this is because he is empathising but doesn't know what to do with it.

 

I think it is like the imagination thing - autistic people are accused of having no imagination when in fact they do but when people observe from the outside they don't always see it

 

Zemanski

[barefoot wend]

I agree. I think autistic people can have a great deal of empathy but it is not always shown in the same way. Further I think they sometimes empathise where, perhaps, someone else wouldn't.

 

Kerre has a great deal of empathic feelings but they are not always shown in the same way as his siblings nor felt about similar situations. Sometimes it seems he over-empathises or empathises with something an NT child wouldn't, i.e. he cried when the teacher pulled the petals off a flower as he empathised with the flower.

 

As with Com he withdraws at times of emotional difficulty and it can appear that he is unconcerned but, in truth, he doesn't know how to express his feelings.

[jlp]

Hi Karen

It's a hard question. I know G does feel things for other people but not always.

 

I can remember my uncle dying last July and my mam was terribly upset - G asked the next day if Grandma would be happy again now (we'd explained she was sad) and less then a week later if Grandma did something to annoy him then he'd shout 'I'm glad your brother died' - he'd obviously realised that this would make Grandma sad but not the total inappopriateness (sp?) of what he was saying.

 

If I was to say trip or know myself he may or may not ask if I was ok, but if he did show sympathy it wouldn't last eg he'd be cross if I couldn't do something a minute later because my leg hurt or whatever.

 

There was a hit and run outside our school on Tuesday and as you know G had a huge fuss about going in on Wednesday. The Asd liasion teacher has decided it was quite possibly because of the Hit and Run. I know perfectly well that it wasn't a) because he'd already started his fuss before we heard about the accident at prayers in school and it sounds awful but he wouldn't really care anyway unless it was possibly me or L.

 

So I suppose in answer to your question I would say very limited empathy, which is aften understood in theory (although if he doesn't like the theory he will refuse it - we're trying to talk about school and how other people feel if he does x y and z but he won't even have other people and theirview points written on the paper, I think because he doesn't like their viewpoint!)

[col]

My nextdoor neighbour who is elderly and has emphasimia(sp) has just been taken in to hospital again. The girls noticed the ambulance and the man going in to the house. DD7 is rather upset and needed repeated cuddling. DD8 was a tinsy wincy bit concerned saying she will miss him but then just carried on as normal.

[KarenT]

I can relate to quite a bit of this. Yesterday morning I woke with pains in my lower chest, think I've pulled a rib muscle or something (God knows how) but couldn't move without hurting or seizing up (dh had to lift me out of the bath, very dignified!). I told J I'd need his help throughout the day because I was sore and couldn't bend easily - his response was to offer me all his Star Wars lego to play with but still couldn't cooperate with me in practical terms - once again he'd offered what he thought would 'cheer me up', rather than something that would take into account the actual problem.

 

This past few days he's said a number of times "I feel sorry for X" but when I hear the reasons why I suspect he's heard other people say it and he's latched on to that. We were at a party yesterday afternoon at the local leisure centre - the same boy has had his birthday there three years running and something's gone wrong with the organisation every time. The boy has always really enjoyed himself but yesterday J said he felt sad for him because he has it in the same place every year (even though with different activities) and his mam and dad have to deal with problems each time. He couldn't quite appreciate that this boy actually liked having his birthday there, because J himself wouldn't, and he was confusing the boy's responses with the difficulties the parents had.

 

I think you've answered my question here - empathy is distinctly possible but there are always quirks and discrepancies. J certainly has those so now I'll have a better idea of how to phrase my responses at the assessment.

 

Ta muchly.

 

Karen

x

[loulou]

Hi,

 

Kai is nearly 8 and i have never seen him show true empathy. One day i was really upset b/c i'd just had enough (one of those days). I sat on my bed and sobbed. Kai came up and said, "What are you doing mummy?". I told him i was sad and he replied, "I'm hungry can i have lunch?". There have been loads of situations like this.

 

He also doesn't seem bothered by those ads with starving children in Africa. He says, "I'm not giving any money to them, i want my money to buy trains".

 

On the other hand though, he does sometimes seem to show some empathy to PHYSICAL pain. My mum has just had a knee replacement and Kai was very keen to see the stitches. Then he said, "Poor Grandma" and hugged her leg.

 

Loulou x

[lancelot]

You've all got me wondering now...

When I worked full-time for a magazine, in one of those lovely open-plan offices, I heard one of the editors on the phone:

 

'Can I speak to Professor XXXX?

Oh. Is this Mrs XXX?

Right. Died, has he? Oh dear.

Do you happen to know if he finished the article first?'

[Andie]

Meg is 8 and up till a few years ago I felt she was fairly normal with some little querks that made her stand out from the crowd. But Empathy would be limited but as she has got older she seems to understand more and does actually ask me if I am upset if I am upset and of course I would be honest with her as she is beginning to read facial expressions and is beginning to understand what empathy is.

 

She has started to show consideration if I am upset by asking if she should empty the dishwasher or make me a drink

 

Andie

[KarenT]

Meg is 8 and up till a few years ago I felt she was fairly normal with some little querks that made her stand out from the crowd. But Empathy would be limited but as she has got older she seems to understand more and does actually ask me if I am upset if I am upset and of course I would be honest with her as she is beginning to read facial expressions and is beginning to understand what empathy is.

 

She has started to show consideration if I am upset by asking if she should empty the dishwasher or make me a drink

 

Andie

That's interesting, Andie, and familiar.

 

I've explained a lot of emotional/empathic stuff to J and it blurs what's learned behaviour and what is instinctively understood. It does worry me a little that on a very good day a psychologist might not pick up on that. Sometimes he's quite good at it - if I'm reading a book to him and ask what's happening and what the character is thinking, he might be able to get it - but other times the deficit is more obvious. I guess it will be down to what questions they ask on the day, and his general temperament at the time.

 

Karen

x

[jb1964]

I've explained a lot of emotional/empathic stuff to J and it blurs what's learned behaviour and what is instinctively understood. It does worry me a little that on a very good day a psychologist might not pick up on that. Sometimes he's quite good at it - if I'm reading a book to him and ask what's happening and what the character is thinking, he might be able to get it - but other times the deficit is more obvious. I guess it will be down to what questions they ask on the day, and his general temperament at the time.

 

Karen

x

 

Funny you mention 'learned behaviour' - prior to my daughters diagnosis she underwent a very lengthy intense assessment programme over quite a few months (they weren't looking for AS - she'd been referred for an eating disorder). The CPN who did the weekly visits told us after the inital meeting that she thought my daughter had AS - although after her first visit to the unit - the Key worker said to me that there was a lot of things my daughter did that they needed to rule out wasn't 'learned behaviour' (my daughter wasn't particularly co-operative on any of the first visits - although she was polite - later the CPN told me she was over correct/her body language and speech was too precise and too controlled - whereas she said an untrained eye would take this as a very shy polite child).

 

I think you're right in saying that with some kids it must be difficult for professionals to ascertain this after one or two visits. Some are more blatantly obvious whereas others manage to mask it better and the level of anxieties on that particular day can vary so much.

 

Take care,

Jb