inclusion: the experiences of children with SEN and disabilities, and their parents in mainstream inclusive schools.

[Emma21]

Hi,

My name is Emma Wood and I am currently a 3 year student at the University of East London. I am currently undertaking my disseration on the 'experiences of children with SEN and disabilities, and their parents in two mainstream inclusive schools' and I was wondering if parents would be willing to answer some questions for me so that I can then formulate them into my questionnaire results? So far my questionnaire format is a bit rusty because my lecturer has been off sick so I have been unable to run it past her! However, any help would be greatly interested because I can then analyse my results.

if u would like to email you my comments then my email is emmawood2001@hotmail.com

 

 

1. Please tell me about your child. How old are they? Are they male or female?

 

 

 

2.If there is any other information about them which you think others should know, for example if they have a disability or a SEN, you might wish to explain about this.

 

 

 

3. Are you happy with your child's current school and how much choice do you feel you had in its selection? Y/ N - Why?

 

4. Have you always wanted your child to be included in a mainstream school? Or was there a turning point in your views on this? Why do you believe it is better for him / her to be educated in an inclusive setting?

 

5. Have you encountered opposition or lack of understanding in your wish for your child to be included? If so, can you tell me about these experiences and how they made you feel?

 

6. What type and level of support have you/your child received to enable your child to access mainstream school?

 

7. What is the outcome / current position of your struggle for inclusion?

 

8. What is your child's current educational status?

They currently attend a special needs school

They currently attend a mainstream school

They are starting a mainstream school shortly

They do not currently attend school because the LEA is refusing to allow them to attend a mainstream school

Other

Please highlight in red and bold

 

 

9. Can you list the kind of difficulties experienced by you as parent of a child with SEN/disabilities?

(Can you number them for example 1= very challenging, 4 is least challenging)

 

 

10. List the supports that are available to you as a parent?

(Number them in order of most successful, least successful)

 

 

11. What strategies have you as a parent used to help you, your family and your child (with SEN/disabilities).

eg support services/help lines? determination/dedication

 

12. Is there a message you would like to give to other parents who are struggling to have their child included?

 

13. Do you have any advice to offer teachers (or other professionals) about how to make inclusion work?

 

Thank you very much for your valuable time.

[madme]

I will formulate my replies and Pm you. However this is as im sure you will be aware a hot issue. In my opinion inclusion can work for some but not all in the current education system.

[pumpkinpie]

Just a quick comment your questionaire is geared at mainstream or special school perspective. It does not take into account that for many parents its not a question about choice but what provision is out there. LEAS are pushing parents to choose mainstream because there is not the specialist provision out there, so in a way I feel its not just parental choice but what we have to put up with due to lack of opportunity.

It may be interesting for you ask how many parents have had to take their kids out of school either long or short term because of problems with the placement ie resourses.

Ask some different questions and I think you will be surprised by the results!

[mossgrove]

They do not currently attend school because the LEA is refusing to allow them to attend a mainstream school

 

4. Have you always wanted your child to be included in a mainstream school? Or was there a turning point in your views on this? Why do you believe it is better for him / her to be educated in an inclusive setting?

 

12. Is there a message you would like to give to other parents who are struggling to have their child included?

 

13. Do you have any advice to offer teachers (or other professionals) about how to make inclusion work?

 

I have highlighted these quotes because you seem to have some pre-conceived ideas about what parents want for their children.

 

There has been much comment in the press and elsewhere about the right to inclusion and the scandal of children being segregated into Special Needs education. If you were to spend a little time reading this forum then you would quickly realise that this does not apply to Autistic Children and their parents.

 

While there are some people on this forum whose children are successfully included in mainstream, this is not the norm. Many parents of Autistic start with the hope that their children can be included in mainstream and come to the realisation that inclusion is utterly inappropriate for their child. In some cases the child has attempted suicide due to the stresses of mainstream inclusion. In many more cases, there have been significant mental health issues caused by inclusion.

 

Our two boys came close to a breakdown because of misguided attempts to include them in mainstream education but are now doing well in Special School. There are many people on this forum whose children are out of Education because of the lack of Specialist provision, and many others whose children are not doing as well as they should because they are being forced into mainstream against the will of their parents.

 

I have never come across a case where an Autitic child has been kept off school becuase of refusal to offer a mainstream place. Ever.

 

Please keep an open mind and do not believe everyhting you read about inclusion being a human right and something that parents up and down the land are clamouring for. I would suggest re-designing your questionnaire so that it deoes not assume that parents want their child to be included as this is eveidently a false assumption.. Baroness Warnock (Widely hailed as the architect of the inclusion policy) has recently said that she thinks it is wrong to assume that alll children should be included, she has Autistic children in mind when she said this.

 

I am sorry if this has turned into a bot of a rant, but the assumption that all children should be included in mainstream is causing significant harm on a day to day basis. Just because a child is physically present at a mainstream school does not mean they are included emotionally, intellectually or socially and more people need to understand this.

 

 

Simon

[call me jaded]

You are also making the assumption that a special school cannot be inclusive. One of the DFES definitions of inclusion is 'the provision of appropriate learning opportunities for all pupils' and in that respect a special school exceeds mainstream.

[Brook]

I agree 100% with Simon.

 

I wont go into details but, my son was in mainstream, he could not cope.

There is no provision in our area that is specific to his needs.

I certainly do not fight for inclusion for him, if anything the opposite.

 

Maybe if you could alter some of the questions, then we could help you.

 

Brook

[phasmid]

Emma is simply asking for peoples experiences of inclusion. I don't see that she is saying it is right or wrong and it is certainly not her fault that there are times the system gets it so wrong. Offer suggestions by all means but please remember it was a similar sort of questionnaire, for MY research that brought me here!

[pumpkinpie]

Emma I hope you will not take our comments personally but as a different perspective from those in books you have read to date. For us as parents this is a very personal issue and no one on this forum has an easy ride as far as education , social services and gaining any form of support.

Children with sen are all very differnt and have distinct difficulties, I personally think it very much depends on the child and their needs ie a child with downs syndrome has very different social and educational needs from one on the spectrum. AS YOU can see on the spectrum there is a vast differnce in strengths and abilities and if a child is more able it does not mean they dont have problems ie mental health, socilaisation.

People are trying to put disabled kids and parents into one box that fits all and it doesnt work!!!!! As we are all different.

What is a common theme is that education gets harder as the kids get older and big impersonnal secoundary schools do not meet the needs of kids with sen no matter what their difficulty is. Even though 1 in 3? People are claased as having a disabilty very little is done to accommodate special kids or look at where education is going wrong for so many.

The government is obsessed with the idea that poverty is the route of everything and forgetting disability in its planning.

Ill be interested in your questionare ans what you make of our comments?

[Emma21]

I have highlighted these quotes because you seem to have some pre-conceived ideas about what parents want for their children.

 

There has been much comment in the press and elsewhere about the right to inclusion and the scandal of children being segregated into Special Needs education. If you were to spend a little time reading this forum then you would quickly realise that this does not apply to Autistic Children and their parents.

 

While there are some people on this forum whose children are successfully included in mainstream, this is not the norm. Many parents of Autistic start with the hope that their children can be included in mainstream and come to the realisation that inclusion is utterly inappropriate for their child. In some cases the child has attempted suicide due to the stresses of mainstream inclusion. In many more cases, there have been significant mental health issues caused by inclusion.

 

Our two boys came close to a breakdown because of misguided attempts to include them in mainstream education but are now doing well in Special School. There are many people on this forum whose children are out of Education because of the lack of Specialist provision, and many others whose children are not doing as well as they should because they are being forced into mainstream against the will of their parents.

 

I have never come across a case where an Autitic child has been kept off school becuase of refusal to offer a mainstream place. Ever.

 

Please keep an open mind and do not believe everyhting you read about inclusion being a human right and something that parents up and down the land are clamouring for. I would suggest re-designing your questionnaire so that it deoes not assume that parents want their child to be included as this is eveidently a false assumption.. Baroness Warnock (Widely hailed as the architect of the inclusion policy) has recently said that she thinks it is wrong to assume that alll children should be included, she has Autistic children in mind when she said this.

 

I am sorry if this has turned into a bot of a rant, but the assumption that all children should be included in mainstream is causing significant harm on a day to day basis. Just because a child is physically present at a mainstream school does not mean they are included emotionally, intellectually or socially and more people need to understand this.

Simon

 

Hi,

I am sorry if my questions have come across this way - I did not intend them too. I work in a special needs school and I also work in the inclusion unit of the school and my job involves going with some of the children into mainstream schools, where I assist them in their learning. I dont believe all children to should be included in mainstream schools and I totally agree with you that just because a child is physically included in a mainstream school, it does not mean they are fully included in all aspects of their education and development. However, my questionnaire and dissertation is specifically focusing on parents experiences of mainstream inclusive schools for their SEN and disabled children.

 

I actually extracted the questions from a researcher at the University of Bath, so I will try to change them.

 

Thank you for your comments - I have taken note of what you have said.

[Zemanski]

Emma,

 

I think you will find that ASDs are a special case to some extent where inclusion is concerned because of the specific difficulties children on the spectrum have with both the physical and social environment in schools and the requirement for good knowledge of both ASDs and individual needs in those who work with them.

 

It is also possible that you will see a split between the experiences of people at primary level and at secondary level because the ethos and size of a school makes such a big difference.

 

hope that helps - I will PM my answers later

 

Zemanski

[Tez]

Emma I've pm'd you. If you change your questionaire let me know and I will update the information.

[jen]

maybe the members of the forum might suggest to Emma what sort of questions to include andthem Emma can compremise. It would be good for Emma to take back to her tutor to actually say these are the questions the parents want.

 

Good luck Emma

 

Jen

[Emma21]

maybe the members of the forum might suggest to Emma what sort of questions to include andthem Emma can compremise. It would be good for Emma to take back to her tutor to actually say these are the questions the parents want.

 

Good luck Emma

 

Jen

 

 

Thanks Jen! Any help or questionnaire questions (preferably unstructured questionnaire questions on inclusive education would be greatly appreciated).

Thanks again

[CarerQuie]

My son is in a Special school (our choice) and it is wonderful.I personally don't want my son in mainstream.xx

Edited February 16, 2006 by CarerQuie

[DaisyProudfoot]

Hi Emma,

 

Filled in your questionnaire ... obviously you're focusing on mainstream inclusion here so I've answed in that fashion.

 

For your interest many of the people on this forum have no problem getting their kids into mainstream school, that's the easy bit - it's getting the support their child requires while there which is the hardest part of the whole inclusion process.

 

Many folks would love to get their children into Special Schools but they're few and far between these days. My friends daughter has ADHD and it's taken her about five years to convince the LEA to move her across. She was getting excluded so often in mainstream. Now she's settled into her new special school and very happy indeed.

 

Daisy

[Emma21]

Thanks to all of you who have completed my questionnaire and commented on it.

I have just arranged to meet my lecturer on tuesday, so it would be great if everybody could try to fill my questionnaire in for me. That way, my lecturer can analyse my questions along with your comments, and then we can decide on what I should do next.

 

Thanks for all of your help again.

 

Emma x

[jen]

Emma the one important question everyone forgets to ask is, is the child happy in there school. An unhappy child will not learn if he is in a special school or mainstream school.

 

As parents our main priority is for our children to be happy

 

Jen

[DaisyProudfoot]

Emma the one important question everyone forgets to ask is, is the child happy in there school. An unhappy child will not learn if he is in a special school or mainstream school.

 

As parents our main priority is for our children to be happy

 

Jen

 

HEAR HEAR!!!!

 

Daisy

[Paula]

My 12 year old son also attends a special school.

 

He did one awfull year in mainstream against my wishes but it was what the LEA wanted.It had to all go wrong and end in tears before they realised mainstream wasnt right for my son.They just wouldnt listen to me.He hated it.

 

Id never ever fight for my son to attend mainstream.Id to fight for a special school.Luckily there was one in our area although it does involve a houres travel there and back.Worth it though.

 

 

I tend to find that people officials who bang on about inclusion in mainstream scjhools often have no idea about the needs of special needs kids they just havent a clue.Yet seam to think they know what is best for our children.

[DaisyFulkirk]

Hello

 

I attended mainstream schools all the way through my education, and recieved some (not enough, with hindsight) support which was specific for my needs.

 

I would like to say some points and then back them up with my understanding of them.

• 'Mainstream' does not mean 'inclusive'.

By this I mean that inclusion is something very, very much more than 'just being there' at a mainstream school. It is about belonging and being just as welcome and just as important as all the other children, and it's also about having your needs met. For a lot of Autistic children this means that the very nature of schools needs to change at their most basic foundations in order to include them. When this has happened and the staff are willing for it to happen, Autistic kids can do very well in inclusive settings. Not very many schools are so prepared to change, though, and so not very many placements of Autistic children in mainstream schools work out.

• True inclusion cannot happen when children are segregated.

By this I mean, separated intentionally. Like being based in a different room or even a different school because of what your label is, being separated from other children on purpose, not for some reason about being benefit to you. There isn't anything, not anything in the whole world that cannot happen in an inclusive school if the human things (willing and commitment and dedication) and resource things (physical spaces, 'specialist' training, actual objects and equipment) are there - the first one is down to people's beliefs and often seems to join up with job happiness and all sorts of personal issues, and the second one is... well, money. Money and space for extra rooms and quiet rooms and changing rooms and so on. I am not saying that everyone should be in the same classroom all the time doing the same things, because not everyone can learn like that, but the belonging... that can happen for everyone, I think, or nearly everyone. An example of segregation would be 'Alice' being taken to a separate room to do different maths to the others, even though there's no actual reason she can't be in the quiet corner and do her maths. An example of a more inclusive way to meet someone's need would be instead of me, Daisy, going to the Resource Room to do my maths at high school because I couldn't do maths with a lot of other people around, I went in the Further Maths group because it was just three other students and me, and I could work there.

 

You could spend most or even all your time not in the main classroom and still be included in that high school, you just were. You mattered. My first high school said I couldn't make friends, and they were partly right, I am not very good at making friends, but I did make some in that high school.

 

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that real inclusion, real honest inclusion, is the best for everyone, I think - everyone I know that's disabled, which is an awful lot of people and covers every kind and severity of disability there is, could do well in a fully inclusive school. Better, even than in the best special school. But not all schools are fully inclusive and some LEAs don't have any inclusive schools at all and if your choice is between being shoved in a big mainstream high school with no proper help and no proper welcome or a special school where all the staff think you are the best thing ever... well, its kind of obvious which is the better choice isn't it. Of course if the choice is between that high school and some sort of giant playgroup sort of special school where even the clever kids never get any qualifications and they look at you like your mad when you ask how many went to university that year... then again, its kind of obvious, except in real life it's never quite that straightforward.

[jen]

So inclusion is about beliefs, staffing,specialist training, quiet areas. staff believing in their pupils. Pupils interacting. Wouldn't that be beautiful maybe then we would not need statements!

 

Jen

[Emma21]

Hi,

Thanks for your message. I agree with everything you have said - mainstream doesn't necessarily mean that the school is inclusive. Also, although many schools might like to be known as an 'inclusive school', in reality they aren't because they fail to meet the various children's needs in the different areas of the education life. Your message was really really insightful and interesting, and i intend to use it for my research.

Thanks

Emma

 

Emma

 

Hello

 

I attended mainstream schools all the way through my education, and recieved some (not enough, with hindsight) support which was specific for my needs.

 

I would like to say some points and then back them up with my understanding of them.

• 'Mainstream' does not mean 'inclusive'.

By this I mean that inclusion is something very, very much more than 'just being there' at a mainstream school. It is about belonging and being just as welcome and just as important as all the other children, and it's also about having your needs met. For a lot of Autistic children this means that the very nature of schools needs to change at their most basic foundations in order to include them. When this has happened and the staff are willing for it to happen, Autistic kids can do very well in inclusive settings. Not very many schools are so prepared to change, though, and so not very many placements of Autistic children in mainstream schools work out.

• True inclusion cannot happen when children are segregated.

By this I mean, separated intentionally. Like being based in a different room or even a different school because of what your label is, being separated from other children on purpose, not for some reason about being benefit to you. There isn't anything, not anything in the whole world that cannot happen in an inclusive school if the human things (willing and commitment and dedication) and resource things (physical spaces, 'specialist' training, actual objects and equipment) are there - the first one is down to people's beliefs and often seems to join up with job happiness and all sorts of personal issues, and the second one is... well, money. Money and space for extra rooms and quiet rooms and changing rooms and so on. I am not saying that everyone should be in the same classroom all the time doing the same things, because not everyone can learn like that, but the belonging... that can happen for everyone, I think, or nearly everyone. An example of segregation would be 'Alice' being taken to a separate room to do different maths to the others, even though there's no actual reason she can't be in the quiet corner and do her maths. An example of a more inclusive way to meet someone's need would be instead of me, Daisy, going to the Resource Room to do my maths at high school because I couldn't do maths with a lot of other people around, I went in the Further Maths group because it was just three other students and me, and I could work there.

 

You could spend most or even all your time not in the main classroom and still be included in that high school, you just were. You mattered. My first high school said I couldn't make friends, and they were partly right, I am not very good at making friends, but I did make some in that high school.

I guess what I am trying to say is that real inclusion, real honest inclusion, is the best for everyone, I think - everyone I know that's disabled, which is an awful lot of people and covers every kind and severity of disability there is, could do well in a fully inclusive school. Better, even than in the best special school. But not all schools are fully inclusive and some LEAs don't have any inclusive schools at all and if your choice is between being shoved in a big mainstream high school with no proper help and no proper welcome or a special school where all the staff think you are the best thing ever... well, its kind of obvious which is the better choice isn't it. Of course if the choice is between that high school and some sort of giant playgroup sort of special school where even the clever kids never get any qualifications and they look at you like your mad when you ask how many went to university that year... then again, its kind of obvious, except in real life it's never quite that straightforward.

[LKS]

Daisy F another wonderful piece of insight from you. Something else I would like to use. Reading what you write gives me hope for the future for my children

[oracle]

Well said Daisy I have long said that inclusion is a feeling and not being sat next to someone in a classroom. You could be in a crowd of 1000's and feel isolated or in room with only 2 people and feel totally included.

 

If only the policy makers would listen to people like yourself - well I can dream

 

Carole

[Malika]

Hi Emma

 

I agree with most specially Simon and Carole my ASD son is in mainsream and seems to cope not too badly but he is expressing hating school more and more often as he grows older he has less and less oportunity to make friend in fact this year he has none and is coming to the point that he rather like to be alone as nobody likes him, sorry but what the point for him to go to mainstream and not having the right support and being so isolated.

My son is 8 and I never had any choice respective to his education setting he does receive some support now 3 hours 2 from a TA (literacy support 1 hour math support in group 1 hour) who does not know much about ASD (she had one hour meeting with the LEA specialist in communication disorder) one hour from the SENCO (social teaching) who has just been trained and is now understanding better.

 

There is no difficulties for ASD children to go to mainstream school we have no other option but most of them do not benefit from the so call "inclusion" what I think the best situation would be for my son his a small school with a specialised unit attach to it.

I never received any support and every step forward has been done because of my determination to get some support for him where I live there are far too many people within the LEA who haven't got a clue about ASD every day is a fight which I cannot give up because my son would suffer more and more having to attempt everyday a school where people do not really want to include him. Inclusion suppose to help "normal" children to be more tolerant and compassionate well frankly I don't think this will never happen it is just the kind of propaganda the education system write about but there are no programe or funding to make this becoming reality.

 

As far as Iam concern inclusion for ASD children is just a disaster.

 

Hope you will do well in your study.

 

Malika.

[Emma21]

Thanks for your comments.

Hopefully I will start getting a few more completed questionnaires back so I can move onto the analysis side of my research!

thanks again,

Emma

 

 

Hi Emma

 

I agree with most specially Simon and Carole my ASD son is in mainsream and seems to cope not too badly but he is expressing hating school more and more often as he grows older he has less and less oportunity to make friend in fact this year he has none and is coming to the point that he rather like to be alone as nobody likes him, sorry but what the point for him to go to mainstream and not having the right support and being so isolated.

My son is 8 and I never had any choice respective to his education setting he does receive some support now 3 hours 2 from a TA (literacy support 1 hour math support in group 1 hour) who does not know much about ASD (she had one hour meeting with the LEA specialist in communication disorder) one hour from the SENCO (social teaching) who has just been trained and is now understanding better.

 

There is no difficulties for ASD children to go to mainstream school we have no other option but most of them do not benefit from the so call "inclusion" what I think the best situation would be for my son his a small school with a specialised unit attach to it.

I never received any support and every step forward has been done because of my determination to get some support for him where I live there are far too many people within the LEA who haven't got a clue about ASD every day is a fight which I cannot give up because my son would suffer more and more having to attempt everyday a school where people do not really want to include him. Inclusion suppose to help "normal" children to be more tolerant and compassionate well frankly I don't think this will never happen it is just the kind of propaganda the education system write about but there are no programe or funding to make this becoming reality.

 

As far as Iam concern inclusion for ASD children is just a disaster.

 

Hope you will do well in your study.

 

Malika.

[phasmid]

Just thought I would bump this back up to the top. Must get around to filling this in myself as well! If it's anything like my survey I am sure Emma could use some more replies too.

[Emma21]

Hi,

Thanks to all of you who filled in my questionnaire. I have so far had 6 back and I want to make the total up to 10! I would really appreciate it if I could have a few more completed questionnaires back.

Thanks,

Emma

[UltraMum]

Hi Emma - filled in the questionnaire and sent it to your email address.

 

I found some of it difficult to complete as J has always been in mainstream and was diagnosed in Y2 so there was never the question of having to fight for inclusion that your questionnaire seems slightly biased towards. Good luck with the research

[Malika]

Hi Emma and MotherEve

 

Same problem here if any thing I would like to fight for exclusion which is more appropriate for children on the spectrum.... but parents wishes never seems to be taken into account somehow.

 

Good luck anyway but I thought you formulate another questionaire.

 

Malika.

[Emma21]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/tr...07_tue_01.shtml

 

This may be of some interest to you all!

 

please try 2 keep filling in the questionnaires for me because I have had some great feedback from my lecturer so far!!

 

Emma x

[phasmid]

pm'd you mine.