DaisyProudfoot Report post Posted January 5, 2006 When my son saw his psychiatrist yesterday he told me afterwards that he found it quite difficult because the doc was trying to get Martin to maintain eye contact. Martin said: "I don't like looking into peoples' eyes mum, you know that. I wanted to look at his feet but I know I shouldn't do that because people want me to look at them. So I looked at his nose instead, is that OK?" I said it was perfectly OK to look at his nose and I'm sure that's not unusual for people with AS Question? Do anyone else do this? Daisy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TuX Report post Posted January 5, 2006 I look anywhere apart from the eyes,not choosy. I think it's the other persons issue if they have a problem with someone for not doing proper eye contact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nellie Report post Posted January 5, 2006 Hi Daisy, This is one issue that makes me really mad. Some people (not all) have issues with eye contact. Your son was able to express his concerns but some people who are forced to make eye contact can't! This link explains one of the reasons why eye contact can be difficult. EYE CONTACT MAY TRIGGER THREATENING SIGNALS IN BRAINS OF AUSTISTIC CHILDREN http://www.neuropsychiatryreviews.com/apr05/eyecontact.html Nellie xx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DAS999 Report post Posted January 5, 2006 My GF bit the dentist because he kept saying look at me! She will not make eye contact but if you ask her to or even why she doesn't she will flip out. I don't think she understands why she can't? not sure Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phasmid Report post Posted January 5, 2006 Phas Jr's first IEP had something along the lines of 'Will make appropriate eye contact' put on it. Not for long, I made them take it off after explaining how threatening this could be to him as he disliked doing it - always has. The senco didn't realise it could make him feel uncomfortable. I did suggest she didn't try it as it would almost guarantee a meltdown! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stressed out mum Report post Posted January 5, 2006 My son also finds this difficult and the school still insist on eye contact being one of his 'targets' during the day. After a conversation with someone on this site (sorry can't remember who ) I have written to the school requesting that they remove this from his target sheet to which I have had no reply. He came home yesterday (his first day back) and he had stickers on the front of his books with his targets on. Number three is still to make eye contact. Can't see why it is so important really. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oreo Cookie Report post Posted January 5, 2006 eyes hurt you. if you look at someones eyes it hurts your head like fire. it is bad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paula Report post Posted January 5, 2006 My son makes fleeting eye contact. I used to get annoyed in the past that he appeared to be not listening to me when i spoke as he never turned to look at me.Now i understand that he doesnt need to look me in the eyes to hear infact looking me in the face makes it harder for him to hear what is being said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phasmid Report post Posted January 5, 2006 If you do not like this IEP target get them to remove it. Your supposed to be consulted about IEP targets and are entitled to have input towards them. The usual reason for this being included is so the teacher/ta can see that the pupil is 'listening' to what is being said. Rubbish! You listen with your ears not your eye's for a start. I currently work with a pupil who makes next to no eye contact but he is fully aware of what is being said (just ask him a question!). They need to find a means other than eye contact to ensure that he is listening, repepating back the instructions might not be enough either. That's one for them to work on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jill Report post Posted January 5, 2006 Just to say that I agree with what others have said here - it's the person who desperately needs eye contact that has the problem in my opinion. If someone responds to you and is obviously listening, does it really matter whether they maintain eye contact or not? Some people must just be so vain that they need to be looked at all the time and feel like they are the centre of the world! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nikrix Report post Posted January 5, 2006 P hates people looking at her and does not look at them unless she knows them well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Suze Report post Posted January 5, 2006 My son will engage eye contact when first conversing...about 5 secs max then looks at the floor or his hands.He also hates ..........people to look at him ,particularly in an audience type scenario, this is difficult cos if he starts to get meltdown....ish............people stare then he gets worse and worse starts to shout at people and ask lovely questions like "what you f***ing looking at"...........this has lead to him being bullied, stones thrown at him etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Jordan Report post Posted January 5, 2006 there are many reasons why eye contact is difficult these include the information becomes painful - the effects of the image processing becomes a painful experience , bleaching (see prospagnosia thread on this site), unequal image sizes between the eyes (anisokonia), fixation problems (nystagmoid movement on mid line), vestibular reflex problems .... Treatment is possible but is it desirable in all cases? Sometimes professionals should consider what the person wants, rather than social norms. Whilst some people insist on eye contact it is often not possible with comfort without physical treatment (which may not be the best course of action), in which case why be cruel! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaisyProudfoot Report post Posted January 5, 2006 There's certainly some interesting views and feelings arising here and certainly worth pursuing further. Considering this I wonder if limited eye contact is solely an ASD trait. I ask this because as far as I am aware I am NT. However my sister says I do not maintain eye contact when speaking and actually have the ability to look through people when I talk to them. She says it's very spooky because I am speaking to her but look as if I am looking at someone situated directly behind her just as if she is invisible. I do not consciously do this. Another thing I am unable to do is look directly into my own eyes in a mirror, I always feel like someone else is looking back at me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tally Report post Posted January 5, 2006 I've always watched people's mouths when they speak, as I have some hearing difficulties. People have commented that I make good eye contact, but I never look in their eyes because then I find it even harder than usual to concentrate on what is being said. So I would suggest that watching the mouth is also a good way to look like you're making eye contact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ceecee Report post Posted January 5, 2006 To be honest i really feel for the person who is struggling to make eye contact.I am aware they are obviously very uncomfortable and they have my sympathy. Just to add from articles I have read some people with a.s. will make eye contact perfectly ok provided they are relaxed.The minute they are stressed then eye contact goes. Another thing that is a possibility is if they are with someone they know very well and there fore very relaxed with then eye contact is very good not only with the person they are comfortable with but with others around them. No one should be forced to make and maintain eye contact is just makes them worst. Trouble is that there are situations e.g. job interviews that if you don't maintain appropriate eye contact you are unlikely to get the job. Some people with A.S. will give over intense eye contact as well.e.g. over compensating for their difficulties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamsmum Report post Posted January 5, 2006 When at school and i admit it was a special school we were made to make eye contact as thay thout it was rude not to i find this verry hard infact at time troumatic. i can do it at docters i make myself as i feel scard thay will think im rude or mad if i dont. But in shopes or on street i cant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pippin Report post Posted January 5, 2006 Question for Ian....why is it that those with ASD seem to find eye contact more difficult than other situations...Surely the processing problems with nystagmus, anisokonia and bleaching would be just as much of a problem with a situation where they stare at any object , not just with looking at other peoples' eyes? (I was an Optometrist in a previous life by the way (a life before ASD kids!)). (note to self - read up more on prosopagnosia) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trd Report post Posted January 5, 2006 Question for Ian....why is it that those with ASD seem to find eye contact more difficult than other situations...Surely the processing problems with nystagmus, anisokonia and bleaching would be just as much of a problem with a situation where they stare at any object , not just with looking at other peoples' eyes? (I was an Optometrist in a previous life by the way (a life before ASD kids!)). (note to self - read up more on prosopagnosia) I can do eye contact but i do find it difficult. I don't know why. It's easy with friends or people I trust. But usually if someone gives me eye contact i will instinctively not return it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mum22boys Report post Posted January 5, 2006 hi daisyproudfoot, Found what you said in your second posting very interesting. As far as i know I am NT however i am aware that I find eye contact very difficult and this is the first time i have said this to anyone. i noticed it several years ago , I realised I looked at peoples mouths when they talk and when i looked at their eyes i found it very hard. I still do and i started thinking a few years ago if everyone did this or just me (this was before we went down the As route with M). So who knows if it is only known in AS, all i know is I find it difficult and always have. In fact if i am in a noisy room i feel deaf if i can't see the other persons mouth moving. Perhaps this is because i always look at peoples mouths when i talk to them and have got used to it. Wierd i know!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Jordan Report post Posted January 5, 2006 have sent private message, it will end up very complex and not really suitable for site Question for Ian....why is it that those with ASD seem to find eye contact more difficult than other situations...Surely the processing problems with nystagmus, anisokonia and bleaching would be just as much of a problem with a situation where they stare at any object , not just with looking at other peoples' eyes? (I was an Optometrist in a previous life by the way (a life before ASD kids!)). (note to self - read up more on prosopagnosia) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bullet Report post Posted January 5, 2006 I hate making eye contact and I've not been diagnosed so may not even have Aspergers. For me it's a combination because it feels uncomfortable and as though I'm zoning out and because I don't know how to "read" the other person's expression unless it's very obvious so I get awkward and start feeling panicky. Usually I'll talk to the person's left shoulder and then occasionally glance at them for a second or two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ceecee Report post Posted January 5, 2006 Rather unusually i have no problem with eye contact.Yet i tick every other box as someone with A.S. Well most.i don't have any short term memory problems and i don't have obsessions.i have taken the two on line tests and come up easily as someone on the spectrum. Anyone else here know anyone with A.S. who does not have problems with eye contact. I have checked with my husband and he has said he has never seen me have any problems with eye contact.Lots of a.s. difficulties in other areas but no probs with eye contact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LizK Report post Posted January 5, 2006 My H hasn't got AS but does have some strong AS traits and he finds making eye contact harder if he's tired, stressed or ill. In fact more of his AStraits tend to come out in thsoe curcumstances. He describes it as an uncomfortable feeling and to do it for a prolonged time makes him feel slightly anxious. At other tiems he has no problems with eye contact My four yr olds eye contact is variable, it can be good, it can be non-existant or it can be fleeting. Variable like him really! My H says it is easier to look at someone's forehead or nose so we try to encourage our son to do this Lx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucas Report post Posted January 6, 2006 I used to think I could read peoples thoughts through their eyes and that the pain was because there were too many thoughts, I couldn't cope with both theirs and mine inside my head. It is not exclusive to Autism at all, want of eye-contact is purely a westernised social fashion. I hear there are some eastern countries where constant eye-contact is considered extremely rude and people prefer a cursory glance of acknowledgement, before being refered to an object of interest which to talk about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Jordan Report post Posted January 6, 2006 The difference is that NT find eye contact generally pleasurable and much can be deduced from pupil size etc. They do not find it painful, uncomfortable, the eyes or face do not disappear, the eyes will give clues as to arousal and emotional levels e.g. pleasure, pain, happiness, sexual, love, the eyes do not appear to merge and change, the eyes do not appear to be very different sizes etc. For most people pain is never associated with eye contact unlike with many people with eye contact problems - they can experience real discomfort. In other words some find physical difficulties with eye contact, most usually do not. BUT, many with ASD do not have problems and a there are a number who are not on the spectrum that do. These people are much more likely to have dyspraxia! - but why this is not clearly understood - but the expectation of dyspraxia is reasonable - as visual image stability is essential in development of visio spatial awareness - (this is a massive subject and extremely important in ASD). Eye contact problems are indicative of ASD but not an exclusively ASD trait. This is not the same as social convention although there may be inter- relationships as so much can be understood by NTs by eye contact, it may be that it is not polite to know the emotion of the other person and therefore eye contact is socially unacceptable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deblegs Report post Posted January 6, 2006 Whenever I look at people when I am talking to them I look at the nose and the mouth. I find that looking a their eyes is too much for me. From Debbie Hudson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steve_colour-se7en Report post Posted January 6, 2006 (edited) Hello everyone, I find certain situations more stressfull than others, fleeting eyeglances where possible, however more i am more comfortable with looking at the area of the bridge of the nose, around this area enables me to avoid direct eye cotact while appearing to others to appear to having done so due to the initial fleeting glance. I suppose this gives most people the impression you are then willing to reciprocate the conversation and therefore appear comply with what society sees as the norm. Eye contact once a conversation starts I cannot seem to make too much of if any due to the fact I cannot seem to talk and listen at the same time (multi tasking) can only do this on the computer and then not too much of that or so I am told, perhaps this is the extreme male brain showing. I have always avoided standing directly in front of someone during conversation, I am always very much aware that I feel threatend by a stance full on as such I tend to turn and always wherever possible carry the conversation on while attempting to stand more to the side of the person thus avoiding full eye contact, takes some pratice but after years of it you do get better at it, another learned coping strategy if feel. Sometimes I feel forced eye contact to be directly part or a contributing factor to a sensory overload. Steve.. I think the boy means well but he is distinctly inclined to be inattentive...... Tutor of Winston Churchill to Lord Randolph Churchill, Winston's father Edited January 6, 2006 by Steve_colour-se7en Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malika Report post Posted January 7, 2006 Hi to all. I personnaly find eye contact somehow difficult after a while I accept it as a way to initialised a conversation but get quite stressed out when people insiste at looking into my eye (ball) in a very fixed way. It makes me uneasy but I then look slightly under or over the eyes to give the impression that I follow the rule, it may be that I do not find to much benefit in it except in a close reletionship. My son makes now very good eye contact except when he is upset. Malika. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
~Jonathan~ Report post Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) I find eye contact very difficult indeed and so when around others I try and find something I can do to not have to do it, I only wish I didn't have such poor concentration levels because reading a book would do it but then someone would no doubt come over to me and say "what are you reading?" and that would just bring to me that which I was hoping to avoid. Edited January 7, 2006 by ~Jonathan~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amberzak Report post Posted February 27, 2006 Okay. This is going to sound a little crasy. I do look at people eyes, but only because I was made to as a kid, so I do it too much. But I don't like it, so I actually look at their eyebrows rather than their eyes. When I was a child I used to think I could see peoples demonds in their eyes. I used to stare at peoples eyes because I was told to, and their face would start to go dark and thier eyes would seem to get bigger and my heart would start pounding and I would try to look away but I couldn't - I felt I was going to be swallowed by those eyes, and then at night I would ahve nightmares about those people turning into demonds and coming to get me. So I look at peoples eyebrows so I don't have to look into their eyes. And no one notices - its great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deblegs Report post Posted February 27, 2006 When I am looking at someone when I talk and when they are talking, I look at their mouth and nose. From Debbie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted February 27, 2006 I also get side-tracked when people are talking to me...for example, I'll get absorbed in how their eye-brows grow, or tiny creases in front of their ears, etc!! Does anyone else do this?? Bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stressedmumto2 Report post Posted February 27, 2006 Son will make eye contact at times but sometimes look as if he is staring right through you. When he is first speaking to you he will not make it, but as soon as he is comfortable he will, when stressed he mostly wont, will stick his hood up and look down on ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites